Using and replenishing XTOL

[Sirius Glass]

Is 2.5L the best size bottle for the working solution? And does it need to be glass, or can it be plastic? It seems like the gallon jugs distilled water comes in would work well and be inexpensive to buy.

I use five one liter plastic bottles.

 

[saman13]

I use five one liter plastic bottles.

For the stock solution after you mix a new batch, correct? Not for the working solution?

 

[Kawaiithulhu]

one liter plastic bottles

When I used xtol last year this is how I kept the sdtock, then I have a separate 2L bottle for the working mix at 1:1. I kept it going for 6 months before I wandered off to play with pyrocat for a while.

I have a fresh packet of xtol waiting to get mixed again now that I'm done playing with the pyro, and since I had good luck with that 1L/2L setup I'll be doing it the same as before. Sometimes my ways are inefficient, but wanted to add a data point to the "casual user every couple of weeks" set.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I use five one liter plastic bottles.

For the stock solution after you mix a new batch, correct? Not for the working solution?

One bottle is for working solution and gets replenished. One bottle [replenishment supply bottle] of the remaining are used for replenishment until empty, then the next bottle is use.

I mix the XTOL in a large bucket and then fill each bottle. I use Jobo bottles and one accordion bottle for the replenishment supply bottle.

 

[MattKing]

So, let’s say I use gallon jugs (3.8L)... I would mix up a batch of 5L of XTOL and put 2.5L each into two jugs. That would leave 1.3L of space in each. Then I would develop 5 rolls of film with the working solution, each time pouring it back into the working bottle and not replenishing. After the 5, I would start pouring in 70ml/roll from the stock solution and still the entire solution I just developed until it gets to the top of the jug, when I would then start replenishing with 70ml still but then topping it off with the solution I just developed with.

You want to use a full jug for your working solution.
And I would recommend several smaller containers for the replenisher, in order to minimize the amount of air-to-developer contact with the replenisher.
As you can see from the other posts in the thread, several people use a smaller than 2.5 litre volume for the working solution.
What is the largest amount of developer that you envision using in any one development? If you never use two tanks at the same time, that would be the maximum amount in your largest tank.
If, like me, that amount is 1 litre, I think you can get good results with a 1.25 litre bottle - I did for a long time - but I would recommend 1.5 litre.

 

[saman13]

One bottle is for working solution and gets replenished. One bottle of the remaining are used for replenishment until empty, then the next bottle is use.

And 1L is enough for a working solution? I would think that larger working solutions would be a more stable concentration.

 

[MattKing]

And 1L is enough for a working solution? I would think that larger working solutions would be a more stable concentration.

It will work.
Especially if you are developing relatively smaller amounts of film, and using relatively smaller amounts of developer each time.
It is advantageous to use more, and necessary to use more if you are regularly nearly exhausting the capacity of your 1 litre of developer every time you develop film - such as regularly developing four 120 films in a 1 litre tank (which I do fairly often with replenished HC-110).

 

[saman13]

You want to use a full jug for your working solution.
And I would recommend several smaller containers for the replenisher, in order to minimize the amount of air-to-developer contact with the replenisher.
As you can see from the other posts in the thread, several people use a smaller than 2.5 litre volume for the working solution.
What is the largest amount of developer that you envision using in any one development? If you never use two tanks at the same time, that would be the maximum amount in your largest tank.
If, like me, that amount is 1 litre, I think you can get good results with a 1.25 litre bottle - I did for a long time - but I would recommend 1.5 litre.

I have a Peterson 2 reel tank right now (that I haven't actually used yet, so my volumes might be off), so the maximum volume I would use at one time would be 600mL for 2 35mm rolls or 500mL for 1 120 roll (I think?). Although I could see myself getting a larger tank so I can start developing more than 1 roll of 120 at a time.

It will work.
Especially if you are developing relatively smaller amounts of film, and using relatively smaller amounts of developer each time.
It is advantageous to use more, and necessary to use more if you are regularly nearly exhausting the capacity of your 1 litre of developer every time you develop film - such as regularly developing four 120 films in a 1 litre tank (which I do fairly often with replenished HC-110).

But as I said, If I use 600mL each time, that is over half of the working solution if using a 1L bottle. In my head at least it seems like one would want a larger working solution than that to keep everything in greater equilibrium.

 

[MattKing]

I have a Peterson 2 reel tank right now (that I haven't actually used yet, so my volumes might be off), so the maximum volume I would use at one time would be 600mL for 2 35mm rolls or 500mL for 1 120 roll (I think?). Although I could see myself getting a larger tank so I can start developing more than 1 roll of 120 at a time.

You can put two 120 rolls on to one reel - there is room to load the first, push it to the centre, then load the second.

But as I said, If I use 600mL each time, that is over half of the working solution if using a 1L bottle. In my head at least it seems like one would want a larger working solution than that to keep everything in greater equilibrium.

That is a good approach, but it is probably more important to be thinking about the relative volumes of the working solution and the replenisher.
Even with just 400 ml of developer left in the jug, the ratio of replenishment solution to working strength is ~70 ml (per roll)/400 ml.

Another way to think of it is that every time you develop a roll, you use up just 1/14 of the developing capacity (70ml/1000ml) of your 1 litre working solution.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from using larger quantities of working solution. I'm just trying to reassure those who, like me, don't have the room for larger quantities.

 

[saman13]

Great info. Didn't know that about loading two rolls onto one reel. I'm about to start developing by replenishing XTOL for the first time so I want to make sure I don't mess it up! But I probably will somehow if we're being honest.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I put two rolls on Jobo reels many times without problems and then ruined four rolls on two reels after a trip. Never again.

 

[saman13]

The XTOL data sheet only has development times for stock and 1+1 dilutions for small tanks and has replenished times for large tanks. Can these times be used for small tank replenishment? If so, I found something strange. For replenished XTOL at 21C (closer to my normal room temp), both FP4 and HP5 have the exact same development times, 9.5 minutes. It is at only this temp and for replenished developer that these two times are the same. They are not the same at any other temp or dilution. Does this mean that I could develop a roll of FP4 and a roll of HP5 in the same tank?? Seems very strange to me but if they are the same developer times then I don't see why I couldn't. That is, unless I can't use the "large tank" times for a small tank and should instead use the 1+1 small tank times.

 

[John Wiegerink]

The XTOL data sheet only has development times for stock and 1+1 dilutions for small tanks and has replenished times for large tanks. Can these times be used for small tank replenishment? If so, I found something strange. For replenished XTOL at 21C (closer to my normal room temp), both FP4 and HP5 have the exact same development times, 9.5 minutes. It is at only this temp and for replenished developer that these two times are the same. They are not the same at any other temp or dilution. Does this mean that I could develop a roll of FP4 and a roll of HP5 in the same tank?? Seems very strange to me but if they are the same developer times then I don't see why I couldn't. That is, unless I can't use the "large tank" times for a small tank and should instead use the 1+1 small tank times.

I would say the only way you will know the answer to that question is for you to try it and see. I have used Xtol Relenished for FP4+ and HP5+ in 120 and my times are not exactly the same. Close, but not the same. These times were set for scanned negatives and not wet-printing. For what it's worth I much preferred the HP5+ negatives since the actual grain made them look sharper and less mush. The shot was of a dark black locomotive in bright sunlight and it was outstanding. Now, for a portrait the FP4+ in replenished Xtol might just be the ticket.

 

[saman13]

So, are the small tank 1+1 or large tank replenished times more accurate to what small tank times actually will be?

 

[John Wiegerink]

So, are the small tank 1+1 or large tank replenished times more accurate to what small tank times actually will be?

I pretty much used the 1+1 times to start with and they were very close, but not perfect for me. You might used those 1+1 times and it might be right on the penny for you, but you'll have to try it to know for sure. When you say small tank and large tank just what size are you talking?

 

[saman13]

I pretty much used the 1+1 times to start with and they were very close, but not perfect for me. You might used those 1+1 times and it might be right on the penny for you, but you'll have to try it to know for sure. When you say small tank and large tank just what size are you talking?

To be honest, I don't know. Those are the terms Kodak uses in their XTOL data sheet.

 

[John Wiegerink]

To be honest, I don't know. Those are the terms Kodak uses in their XTOL data sheet.

I believe Kodak is talking a commercial type roller-transport or dip-dunk type tank when they mean large. Not something you and I would or will be using. You can use the reference of "small tank" for your starting point.

 

[Anon Ymous]

The difference between small and large tanks regarding Kodak's datasheets is the agitation interval. Kodak's development times in small tanks assume agitation every 30'' and every minute for large tanks. This means a roughly 10% extension in development time for large tanks.

 

[destroya]

i use the large tank times for my Paterson small tanks and agitate every minute for replenished XTOL. the times work well for me for tri-x and tmax 400

 

[saman13]

The difference between small and large tanks regarding Kodak's datasheets is the agitation interval. Kodak's development times in small tanks assume agitation every 30'' and every minute for large tanks. This means a roughly 10% extension in development time for large tanks.

i use the large tank times for my Paterson small tanks and agitate every minute for replenished XTOL. the times work well for me for tri-x and tmax 400

Just what I was wondering. I agitate 10s every minute so I'll try the large tank replenished times as my starting point. Thanks y'all!

 

[FujiLove]

The difference between small and large tanks regarding Kodak's datasheets is the agitation interval. Kodak's development times in small tanks assume agitation every 30'' and every minute for large tanks. This means a roughly 10% extension in development time for large tanks.

i use the large tank times for my Paterson small tanks and agitate every minute for replenished XTOL. the times work well for me for tri-x and tmax 400

I’ve read through this thread and some people seem to be using the times for Xtol 1:1 and others the time for large replenished tanks. The above comments suggest this is dependent on your agitation method, but surely that would lead to a shorter time for small tanks agitated every 30 seconds versus a one minute interval for the large tank?

However that’s not what the Kodak datasheet shows. Taking T-max 400 @ 20C as an example:

Small tank, 30 second agitation interval, 1:1 dilution = 9.5 minutes development
Large replenished tank, 1 minute agitation interval = 7.5 minutes development

What am I missing?

 

[FujiLove]

^^^ Referencing pages 6 and 11 of the Xtol PDF: http://wwwuk.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j109/j109.pdf

 

[John Wiegerink]

I’ve read through this thread and some people seem to be using the times for Xtol 1:1 and others the time for large replenished tanks. The above comments suggest this is dependent on your agitation method, but surely that would lead to a shorter time for small tanks agitated every 30 seconds versus a one minute interval for the large tank?

However that’s not what the Kodak datasheet shows. Taking T-max 400 @ 20C as an example:

Small tank, 30 second agitation interval, 1:1 dilution = 9.5 minutes development
Large replenished tank, 1 minute agitation interval = 7.5 minutes development

What am I missing?

I photography, art, cooking and most other things...............nothing is written in stone! That's why most folks here do their own testing of materials. Kodak's data sheet is just a suggestion sheet, but a very strong suggestion sheet it is. It's also one of the very best starting places for trying Kodak products. Now, if you "mix & match", say using Kodak Xtol and a different film it's then a whole new ballgame. I use Xtol replenished and started by using Xtol 1:1 times, but those times are not where I ended up for my negatives, enlarger light source and paper. Close to 1:1 times, but not exactly. Still, the recommendations made by Kodak are the best place to start. In my opinion anyway. For whatever that's worth? JohnW

 

[MattKing]

The large tank, seasoned developer recommendations are, of course, for undiluted seasoned developer.
The small tank, 1:1 developer recommendations are, of course, for diluted stock developer.
While it is the case that there is more agitation in the small tanks, there is also more aeration of diluted developer in the small tanks.
The time progression - from shortest to longest - goes:
Small tank stock (6.5) - large tank seasoned (7.5) - small tank 1:1 diluted (8.5)
You will note that the time progressions vary a bit between films.

 

[FujiLove]

I photography, art, cooking and most other things...............nothing is written in stone! That's why most folks here do their own testing of materials. Kodak's data sheet is just a suggestion sheet, but a very strong suggestion sheet it is. It's also one of the very best starting places for trying Kodak products. Now, if you "mix & match", say using Kodak Xtol and a different film it's then a whole new ballgame. I use Xtol replenished and started by using Xtol 1:1 times, but those times are not where I ended up for my negatives, enlarger light source and paper. Close to 1:1 times, but not exactly. Still, the recommendations made by Kodak are the best place to start. In my opinion anyway. For whatever that's worth? JohnW

The large tank, seasoned developer recommendations are, of course, for undiluted seasoned developer.
The small tank, 1:1 developer recommendations are, of course, for diluted stock developer.
While it is the case that there is more agitation in the small tanks, there is also more aeration of diluted developer in the small tanks.
The time progression - from shortest to longest - goes:
Small tank stock (6.5) - large tank seasoned (7.5) - small tank 1:1 diluted (8.5)
You will note that the time progressions vary a bit between films.

Okay thanks - that makes sense. I guess I'll start with the 1:1 times once the Xtol is seasoned and go from there. I don't own a densitometer, so I'll have to just eyeball the negatives and compare against existing ones that I know printed well.