Using and replenishing XTOL

[John Wiegerink]

I didn't use a 2.5 liter container since I had none. I did have a Boston brown gallon glass jug on hand and used that instead. How I mixed mine was using a clean plastic pail I mixed two batches of Xtol, filled the gallon jug to the top with the mixed Xtol and put the rest in a wine bladder for use as the replenisher. Works like a charm and it's now over two years old and just seems to be like a fine wine.............."gets better with age"! I really don't think brown glass will make any difference in the developers longevity as long as you store it in a cabinet or out of direct light. One other note. I have a funnel with a gold coffee filter in it and also put a paper coffee filter inside the gold one for filtering my "just used" developer.
Here's my procedure: Take my gallon jug, 1. pour out what I need, 2. develop my allotted film, 3. put the funnel/filter in the jug, 4. pour in my 80ml of replenisher, 5. then top off the jug with my left-over developer. 6. discard what won't fit in the jug. 7. admire the neatives

 

[Svenedin]

@ John. Wine bladder sounds a good plan to store the stock. My mother drinks what I call "industrial wine" that comes in those bladders. I don't have a cupboard to store my chemicals. All my darkroom equipment is on shelves in a brightly lit room so that's why I'd want to use brown bottles. I may actually have a brown demijohn but that is an Imperial gallon (4.54 litres) so a bit too big. The most developer I would ever want to use is 1.5 litres (to develop 3x 120 in a Paterson tank). I like the idea of filtering the just used developer as it is put back.

The whole concept of replenishment is fairly familiar to me; I use a slot processor for paper and that is replenished. That has saved me a lot of money in chemicals. My intermittent darkroom use was wasting a lot in open trays.

 

[saman13]

Do you always replenish with 70ml of stock, no matter how many rolls you just developed or if you developed 35/120?

 

[Sirius Glass]

I always replenish with 70ml of stock with each roll of 135-36 or 120. I replenish for the number of 4"x5" sheets that I use.

 

[MattKing]

Do you always replenish with 70ml of stock, no matter how many rolls you just developed or if you developed 35/120?

Your replenishment is calculated per roll or sheet, and is based on the surface area of the film developed..
As far as surface area is concerned a 135/36 = 120 = 8x10 - each of which requires 70 ml of replenishment.
A 135/24 requires about 50 ml.
A 4x5 sheet requires about 18 ml.
A roll of 220 requires 140 ml.
If I develop three 135/36 rolls in a tank, I'll add three measures of replenisher. For those using 70 ml per roll, that means 210 ml.

 

[Sirius Glass]

For X 4"x5" negatives use (X*70ml)/4

OK the '(' and ')' are redundant but I want it to be clear.

 

[saman13]

Your replenishment is calculated per roll or sheet, and is based on the surface area of the film developed..
As far as surface area is concerned a 135/36 = 120 = 8x10 - each of which requires 70 ml of replenishment.
A 135/24 requires about 50 ml.
A 4x5 sheet requires about 18 ml.
A roll of 220 requires 140 ml.
If I develop three 135/36 rolls in a tank, I'll add three measures of replenisher. For those using 70 ml per roll, that means 210 ml.

Very clear, thank you.

 

[Svenedin]

I understand the replenishment principle I think.

I'm not clear on is how many rolls are processed in a brand new batch of working solution before starting to replenish at 70ml per roll and how to deal with the transition to the different developing times required between using fresh stock solution and replenished working solution. Surely there should be a tapered transition of development times rather than a sudden switch from stock times to replenished times?

I'm also not quite clear on whether to go on replenishing for ever when mixing up a new batch of Xtol or to start again when I run out of replinisher?

 

[MattKing]

I understand the replenishment principle I think.

I'm not clear on is how many rolls are processed in a brand new batch of working solution before starting to replenish at 70ml per roll and how to deal with the transition to the different developing times required between using fresh stock solution and replenished working solution. Surely there should be a tapered transition of development times rather than a sudden switch from stock times to replenished times?

I'm also not quite clear on whether to go on replenishing for ever when mixing up a new batch of Xtol or to start again when I run out of replinisher?

In case you haven't reviewed it, here is the Kodak datasheet for X-Tol: http://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/uat/files/wysiwyg/pro/chemistry/j109.pdf
There is a fair amount of information in it about replenishment. Most relevant to your first question is the excerpt on page 4 in the part about Large Tank (Replenished) Processing that states:
"If you choose not to preseason the fresh tank, initial development times will be about 10 percent shorter than those in the tables, but times will approach the times in the tables as the tank approaches a steady state."
The table referred to in that excerpt is primarily Table 3, on pages 11 and 12, although the final column in Table 2 may also be relevant if you use rotary processing.
The time to reach steady state will vary with the size of your working strength container - the larger the volume, the longer it will take. Anecdotally, I would suggest that if you are using something like two litres of working solution, you will be close to steady state and can start replenishing after developing 5 rolls.
Alternatively, you can use one of the recommended developer starters referred to in the datasheet - if you have them at hand.
I think you can agree that if the seasoning process involves only a 10 percent time adjustment, the change is relatively minor even in the worst case scenario.

As for your second question, you can go on forever - just keep mixing up new 5 liter batches of X-Tol to use as more replenisher whenever you finish up the last one. The working solution stays and continues its job.
It is a good idea though to filter the working solution from time to time, just to deal with any accumulated dirt or dust.

 

[Svenedin]

Thanks Matt. I had read the document but obviously I had not read it properly. I only develop in Paterson tanks. Usually just 2x35mm reel tank but occasionally the 5x35mm tank.

 

[MattKing]

Thanks Matt. I had read the document but obviously I had not read it properly. I only develop in Paterson tanks. Usually just 2x35mm reel tank but occasionally the 5x35mm tank.

I use the 3x35mm Paterson tanks mostly. Replenishment works well.
The times I use are the results of fine tuning, but they aren't far from the Kodak starting points for the film and developer combinations I use.

 

[saman13]

Has anyone tried replenishing with the Eco Pro developer? It claims to be almost equivalent to XTOL so I wonder if it shares this ability as well. I've read some people's accounts that it does not have the same lifespan as XTOL so I wonder if this would keep replenishing off the table. I'd really like to try out Eco Pro and would like it even more if I could replenish.

 

[MattKing]

If replenishment isn't recommended specifically by the Eco Pro manufacturers, you would have to figure out both whether it would work and how to do it.
That would involve a lot of time, testing, film, and test prints.
The attraction of X-Tol and replenishment is at least partially due to its relative simplicity. Other developers are relatively complex when they are used in a replenishment gegime.
To illustrate the potential complexity, take a look at page 7 in the old HC-110 datasheet which discusses using the now discontinued HC-110 replenisher in an HC-110 replenishment regime: http://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/j24-2002_10.pdf

 

[Oldwino]

Has anyone tried replenishing with the Eco Pro developer? It claims to be almost equivalent to XTOL so I wonder if it shares this ability as well. I've read some people's accounts that it does not have the same lifespan as XTOL so I wonder if this would keep replenishing off the table. I'd really like to try out Eco Pro and would like it even more if I could replenish.

I am using EcoPro replenished and it works fine - just like Xtol. No problems.

 

[mshchem]

If replenishment isn't recommended specifically by the Eco Pro manufacturers, you would have to figure out both whether it would work and how to do it.
That would involve a lot of time, testing, film, and test prints.
The attraction of X-Tol and replenishment is at least partially due to its relative simplicity. Other developers are relatively complex when they are used in a replenishment gegime.
To illustrate the potential complexity, take a look at page 7 in the old HC-110 datasheet which discusses using the now discontinued HC-110 replenisher in an HC-110 replenishment regime: http://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/j24-2002_10.pdf

HC-110 Dilution B, brings back memories. 22mL of replenisher per 80 sg. inches. The stuff smelled like the worse BAD Breath ever.
I've been using XTOL since it first appeared both replenished and one shot, love it
Mike

 

[RattyMouse]

HC-110 Dilution B, brings back memories. 22mL of replenisher per 80 sg. inches. The stuff smelled like the worse BAD Breath ever.
I've been using XTOL since it first appeared both replenished and one shot, love it
Mike

Wow.....I've been using Kodak HC-110 for close to 5 years now and have never once noticed any odor. I dont stick my nose in the bottle on purpose, so never detect an odor from a distance. Very odd that it would smell that bad.

I love HC-110 because it's a 1 shot developer. I will never, ever replenish so XTOL is out for me.

 

[pthornto]

I've been using replenished XTOL for over a year now. I have been amazed at how robust the process has been. I replenish at ~80mL/roll and am using 1L working solution. Sometimes I don't develop film for over 2 weeks and the working solution always works like a champ. I use good distilled water and store my stock in full glass 0.75L bottles. I have had very consistent negatives (typically using Tri-X at 200-250 EI or TMY-2 at box speed) and no noticeable change in density over this year.

 

[c41]

I'm only into Roll 7 (replenishing from Roll 5) and so far so good, I like it!
My negs look good to me.

I'd like to consider the same for paper developer if it's practical.

My only observations so far are:
- 2.5L (or so) bottles are a pain to find!
- it makes developing time easier (no more Bain Marie!)
- it makes the step from development end to adding stop a lot more frenetic
- it consumes a lot less developer, which is great

 

[MattKing]

it makes the step from development end to adding stop a lot more frenetic

A 2 litre measuring graduate or other container for use as a temporary storage resource is your friend.
- during development time, add replenisher to half empty working strength storage container, and prepare stop bath in another container;
- at end of developing time, dump developer into 2 litre container, and then set that container to the side;
- add stop bath to the developing tank and agitate for 30 seconds. put developing tank down and let it stand for 30 seconds - 1 minute. Set aside stop bath container;
- during the stop bath step, retrieve the 2 litre container and pour from it back into the working strength container. Discard the overflow. Put the cap back on!
- at end of stop bath step, dump the stop bath.
To aid my memory process, I put a funnel into the working strength developer container, and don't put a funnel into any other container.
It doesn't hurt anything to leave the film in the stop bath for an extra few seconds, so there is less need to be frenetic.

 

[c41]

Thanks Matt, I like it, good idea, I'll do exactly that.

 

[saman13]

Is 2.5L the best size bottle for the working solution? And does it need to be glass, or can it be plastic? It seems like the gallon jugs distilled water comes in would work well and be inexpensive to buy.

 

[MattKing]

I use a plastic 64 ounce jug for my replenished HC-110. My largest developing tank is one litre (34 ounces) so that tends to influence the question. It wouldn't hurt to have it larger.
I would recommend against glass for the working solution - not because glass doesn't do a great job, but because the working solution gets handled a lot more than the replenisher, and glass jugs are both more slippery and more easily shattered than plastic.

 

[c41]

A 2 litre measuring graduate or other container for use as a temporary storage resource is your friend.
- during development time, add replenisher to half empty working strength storage container, and prepare stop bath in another container;
- at end of developing time, dump developer into 2 litre container, and then set that container to the side;
- add stop bath to the developing tank and agitate for 30 seconds. put developing tank down and let it stand for 30 seconds - 1 minute. Set aside stop bath container;
- during the stop bath step, retrieve the 2 litre container and pour from it back into the working strength container. Discard the overflow. Put the cap back on!
- at end of stop bath step, dump the stop bath.
To aid my memory process, I put a funnel into the working strength developer container, and don't put a funnel into any other container.
It doesn't hurt anything to leave the film in the stop bath for an extra few seconds, so there is less need to be frenetic.

Thanks again Matt. 6 rolls on... this suggestion made a big difference in developing workflow. I clearly needed a bit of help to figure it out.
I'm still in a little bit of "where's the Bain Marie?" shock I think.

 

[MattKing]

Thanks again Matt. 6 rolls on... this suggestion made a big difference in developing workflow. I clearly needed a bit of help to figure it out.
I'm still in a little bit of "where's the Bain Marie?" shock I think.

Glad I could help!

 

[saman13]

I use a plastic 64 ounce jug for my replenished HC-110. My largest developing tank is one litre (34 ounces) so that tends to influence the question. It wouldn't hurt to have it larger.
I would recommend against glass for the working solution - not because glass doesn't do a great job, but because the working solution gets handled a lot more than the replenisher, and glass jugs are both more slippery and more easily shattered than plastic.

So, let’s say I use gallon jugs (3.8L)... I would mix up a batch of 5L of XTOL and put 2.5L each into two jugs. That would leave 1.3L of space in each. Then I would develop 5 rolls of film with the working solution, each time pouring it back into the working bottle and not replenishing. After the 5, I would start pouring in 70ml/roll from the stock solution and still the entire solution I just developed until it gets to the top of the jug, when I would then start replenishing with 70ml still but then topping it off with the solution I just developed with.