The Zone System is Dead

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Ian Grant

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I agree Doremus. If we look at the work of Thomas Joshua Cooper. John Blakemore, Linda Connor, Olivia Parker etc we can see the "cult of pre-visualisation" which works exceedingly well for them. the images in "Between Dark and Dark", Thomas Joshua Cooper, is a very good example of the control of shadow detail and the lower zones.

Craft is the key to good photography it frees us to make the images we want, we aren't slaves to craft (which is what opponents of the Zone System think) we need to be the masters. That freedom allows greater creativity in the knowledge that you will succeed in what you strive to achieve.

Ian
 

JBrunner

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IMO the zone system dunt work with most emulshuns the way it did when I was just a sprout and the white and black man taught me. With the newfangled stuff when makin negs where nothin moves often I would sometimes give expanshun a boost by workin in some reciprocity failure. Thats what we call a trick.

But things aren't like what they were. That could be part of it.
 
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... With the newfangled stuff when makin negs where nothin moves often I would sometimes give expanshun a boost by workin in some reciprocity failure. Thats what we call a trick...

I use this trick all the time; it's a look that regular expansions can't really provide. For me, that's applying the Zone System too.
 

RalphLambrecht

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Some believe that all the paper grades cam be reproduced using filters. It just isn't true. Some of the grades are hard or impossible to achieve. So the Zone System is still very useful.
It is but,VC papers clipped its wings a bit.
 

trendland

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Hi, I have posted a YouTube video brazenly entitled "The Zone System is Dead." It shows a method I have worked out for controlling contrast in the development of black and white film. The video is intended for photographers who process their own films. I submit that the method described is simpler and more straightforward than the Zone System. The method does require darkroom testing. I use my enlarger and a Stouffer step wedge. The method tells you how to produce (for your film and developer) your lowest and highest contrast levels, and then how to produce equally spaced contrast levels in between. Finally, it shows how to assign ASA numbers to the contrast levels identified.

I am glad to hear this news - because I ever missed the intellectual capacity of my brain to understand the Zone System.
.....:whistling:...:D
So I have not to care about this "Zones" again in future? :wink:

with regards
 

trendland

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It is but,VC papers clipped its wings a bit.

I see - so you are a friend of graded paper outside "multigrade" like me ?
Some stated in the past that "real grade paper" have a bigger range of contrast variations compared with standart multigrade papers (within filtered multigrade workflow)
with regards
 

trendland

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I agree Doremus. If we look at the work of Thomas Joshua Cooper. John Blakemore, Linda Connor, Olivia Parker etc we can see the "cult of pre-visualisation" which works exceedingly well for them. the images in "Between Dark and Dark", Thomas Joshua Cooper, is a very good example of the control of shadow detail and the lower zones.

Craft is the key to good photography it frees us to make the images we want, we aren't slaves to craft (which is what opponents of the Zone System think) we need to be the masters. That freedom allows greater creativity in the knowledge that you will succeed in what you strive to achieve.

Ian

Quite logical - so if you are a "slave" of technical parameters the next step could be to make you a slave just to shot special motives and nothing else. ...:D
My equipment is allways "My slave" and same is with technical issues.
(just stupid if it does not work as I want it.....:whistling:)
with greetings:smile:
 

Sirius Glass

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It is but,VC papers clipped its wings a bit.

Exactly, that is why the Zone System is not needed. One needs to learn to print the many tones in film on to fewer tones on paper.
 

removed account4

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Quite logical - so if you are a "slave" of technical parameters the next step could be to make you a slave just to shot special motives and nothing else. ...:D
My equipment is allways "My slave" and same is with technical issues.
(just stupid if it does not work as I want it.....:whistling:)
with greetings:smile:

it really has nothing to do with being a slave to anything ...
it has to do with knowing how to read light, how to expose film and how to process+print it
so the camera operator gets what s/he wants, instead of flat underexposed negatives. whether the "zone system" is dead or alive
doesn't matter, its just called something else, but knowing my equipment works, and knowing how to expose film and get what i want matters..
the zone system has been around for many years, even before saint ansel and others got more people to understand what it was and how it worked.

people stand on the shoulders of people before them .. and sometimes improve the systems they created ...
nothing is dead or alive, its just reincarnated or rematerialized into a different form.
 

Fritzthecat

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Maybe instead of declaring the zone system dead, the OP could have titled the thread "How I utilize select portions of the zone system to obtain my results".
 

DREW WILEY

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The ZS is just as applicable to modern films as it was to earlier ones. But there is no law that says you have to use it, or can use it only in that given manner "It's my way or the highway" certain workshop gurus teach it. You can bend it, adapt it, and mould it to your own specific needs, or just plain ignore it. But for some, it will still be valuable to learn.
 

trendland

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Maybe instead of declaring the zone system dead, the OP could have titled the thread "How I utilize select portions of the zone system to obtain my results".

"Tomcat" Fritz - this is a real smart statement - but I don't agree with.

with regards

PS : Of course I realy know the Zone System - and I hope I understand it.
(a little bit complicate it is - you agree? )
BUT I DO NOT NEED IT - Sorry
(It remebers me a bit on the ADIZ - the "Zone" System.)
ADIZ in older ICAO cards. ...:tongue:
(.....danger. ...a/c within the ADIZ will be fired up without warning. ..:surprised:)
 

Ian Grant

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It is but,VC papers clipped its wings a bit.
The ZS is just as applicable to modern films as it was to earlier ones. But there is no law that says you have to use it, or can use it only in that given manner "It's my way or the highway" certain workshop gurus teach it. You can bend it, adapt it, and mould it to your own specific needs, or just plain ignore it. But for some, it will still be valuable to learn.

I'll use the term "craft" again whether you use the Zone System, or get even more obsessed with BTZ it's not rocket science just common sense. It's really needed even more with films like Tmax :D

Ian
 
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Exactly, that is why the Zone System is not needed. One needs to learn to print the many tones in film on to fewer tones on paper.

At the risk of sounding flippant (which I do from time-to-time :smile: ), I was under the impression that this was precisely why the Zone System was invented. Yes, with modern VC papers, exact tailoring of the negative to a specific paper grade isn't needed so much, but there are still scenes that print a whole lot better on whatever paper grade if we realize that expanded or reduced development is needed to get the many tones present onto the paper...

If people want to use it as a "visualization" tool (?), fine. But they should also know the controls are quite limited in the context of print quality. Printing is where the control is at.

Michael,

You seem to "poo-poo" the idea of visualization here, and I don't really understand why. Here are a few things I consider "visualization" and why I think they are important. I'd love to have your comments:

1. Filter use. Every time I use a filter, it's because I've looked at the scene and decided I'd like to manipulate it in a particular way. I consider this using visualization to achieve desired results. Without an idea of what a filter does, I would have no reason to choose it, or one over the other. (AA's "epiphany" visualization was with a filter too IIRC (Half Dome).)

2. Certainly, just metering extremes and squeezing them onto the film in a pre-determined way is mostly mechanical, but it is still a visualization somewhat in that one realizes that the shadows won't go featureless or the highlights won't be difficult to print. However, when I decide to place a shadow value in Zone 0 because I want no detail there, or I decide to develop N+1 and let a sky go to Zone XII because I want it white and really want the other elements in the scene to be separated more, then I'm really visualizing, as far as I understand the term. It's a result I couldn't get with "normal" metering and processing.

3. When I intentionally over-expose a long-toe film to get shadows up into the straight-line portion of the curve, I'm visualizing a result that I wouldn't be able to get with "normal" exposure. Similarly, when I decide to use an ND filter and reciprocity failure to expand separation in the low values of a scene, I'm visualizing a "non-normal" result.

4. When I develop N+1 or more for a scene that has a normal luminance range, knowing full well that I'll be spending a lot of time dodging and burning (with split filtration on VC paper if that's the requirement), I've again departed from "normal" and used my visualization of what result I want to alter my development scheme.

For all of the above, my spot meter is the tool that tells me (as accurately as it can) what the reality of the scene is. Without this information and the ability to picture in my mind's eye how that will look in a final print, I wouldn't be able to decide to accept a "normal" rendering of that or depart from it in any of a number of ways. While I agree that printing provides the majority of controls, controls at the exposure and development stage are not any less powerful. However, in order to utilize these latter, we must be able to know what effect they are going to have and what possibilities they will enable and exclude; i.e., we must be able to visualize the possibilities in order to choose what to do with the negative in terms of exposure and development if we want to do anything else than just expose and develop "correctly." Even this latter requires some figuring out of what "correct" is.

Best,

Doremus
 

CMoore

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We are having a giant Book-Burning tonight.
To get the whole thing started.....we are using some Very Dried Out copies of Negative, Camera, Print...that degenerate trash should make excellent kindling.
When i first went into a darkroom (circa 1978).....VC RC Paper was already pretty established. That fact, plus shooting 35mm roll film, and only being a "Hobbyist" Photographer, i never did learn much about The Zone System.To this day, I do partially consider it when i take a picture, probably most of us do in some shape or form.
But, i don't know.......to come on a Forum, and announce..."The Zone System Is Dead"...smacks of arrogance, a little bit I think.
Film is "dead".....but isn't there still a Place/Use for it in our Modern and Digital society.:wondering:
 
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DREW WILEY

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The Zone System will undoubtedly outlive those who prematurely announce its obituary. I gave away all my AA how-to books except Examples, not because I considered the info obsolete, but because I had personally gleaned what I needed and had long before assimilated it into an almost subconscious mode of working, of which it is only an optional part. But if I had to choose, I'd rather be an uptight Zone System Droid than a sloppy shoot-from-the-hip machine-gunner.
 
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I don't think anyone is suggesting shooting from the hip as an alternative to using the Zone System. You can be every bit as (or more) meticulous about craft without it.
Shooting using the Zone System is more like driving stick shift. You have more control, but it requires more work. Shooting without placing zones is more like driving automatic. Works most of the time and it's pretty good. There are times when an automatic transmission has to put into a lower gear going uphill.
 

DREW WILEY

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I am more meticulous than the Zone System - way more meticulous. But that doesn't mean slower or more convoluted. Ask an accomplished pianist if he stops to think about every time a finger touches a key. After awhile it all gets second-nature.
 

Ian Grant

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If people want to use it as a "visualization" tool (?), fine. But they should also know the controls are quite limited in the context of print quality. Printing is where the control is at.

No the controls are very significant and have a huge effect on final print quality in the right hands. Of course you also need to be able to master printing controls with any negatives but far less so when the ZS gives easily printable negatives.

It's always interesting that the people opposing the Zone System (or BTZS) either don't post any of their own images or need to resort to extreme printing techniques to make an image.

Ansel Adams might have written about the Zone System but most of his well known images pre-date it, his print quality is rather variable as some of us saw when his daughter's collection toured the UK maybe 10 years ago now, his contemporary prints weren't that good, later prints off the same negatives were excellent

Minor White used the Zone System and had far better and more consistent print quality,. The Weston's never used anything, however their Pyro developers are almost self masking rather like Albumen prints, but with Pyro the process controls contrast build up through tanning and staining.

Too much talk not enough practical experience.

Ian
 

Ian Grant

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Think whatever you want about control, Ian. Not interested in arguing with you about print quality.

Think whatever you want about Zone System controls, Ian. I'm not an "opponent" of the Zone System. I just don't need it anymore. I'm interested only in the best possible print quality, and I know what is and isn't possible when making negatives.

But you are arguing against control of negative quality which is the key to high quality prints. Why do you never post images or examples. I'm happy to show images on-line or in person, some - well a few here - have seen my prints first hand.

You need to qualify your own approach, tell the world, then post some images to back up what you are saying.

Ian
 

DREW WILEY

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Talk about optimized print control and actually representing that on the WEB? Isn't that about the same as being given a Handl score and performing it with a gut-bucket, handsaw, washboard, and kazoo? Get real.
 

faberryman

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You can get a pretty good idea with a web post whether an image is worth seeking out to look at in person, so they are of some use.
 
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