The Toner Thread

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Stephen Frizza, Jul 17, 2010.

  1. Marco B

    Marco B Member

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    So the actual "color" of the gelatine is changed as well... sounds not entirely illogical, since if I remember it well, dichromate is also used to stain or change color of other organic materials as well. For example, make new fresh wood look like old wood in the antique restoration business...
     
  2. Vlad Soare

    Vlad Soare Member

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    What I'd like to find is a formula for a selenium toner without that nasty ammonia smell. Tim Rudman gives a few formulae in his book, but all of them are combinations of selenium and sulfides. While combined selenium+sulfur toners may be interesting in their own right, I'd also like to be able to make a pure selenium toner, without sulfides. And, if possible, without ammonium compounds, so it wouldn't stink.
    He mentions odorless selenium toners, but gives no formula. :sad:

    By the way, why do most commercial selenium toners contain thiosulfates? I thought selenium acts directly on the metallic silver and turns it into silver selenide. It shouldn't produce any silver halides. Why would you need a fixer?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 2, 2010
  3. Marco B

    Marco B Member

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    I have no idea why selenium toners contain so much ammonia in the concentrates being sold in the first place, as in my experience, old selenium toner that gives of hardly any smell, keeps working perfectly... I keep my working solutions for very long periods and simply re-use it when needed, and add a bit of concentrate now and than while disposing of a similar amount in a separate bottle.

    Also, in my experience, the ammonia smell is only pungent or problematic the first 3 or so times it is used. After that, it quickly abates to an almost indiscernible smell. Hence, I have no issues at all using my selenium toner in a small darkroom (I do have a bathroom ventilator installed for active ventilation, but that is all).
     
  4. Mark Layne

    Mark Layne Member

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    Many hardware stores sell 'Muriatic' acid for (I believe) cleaning stubborn drains.
     
  5. Ray Rogers

    Ray Rogers Member

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    The main reason is to enable use of the toner as stock solution by simple dilution... without unwanted metal falling out of solution... it also promotes the toning process and protects the non image areas of the paper....

    It is a commercial advantage thats all.
     
  6. eclarke

    eclarke Member

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    Ian,
    Do you have any experience with this toner and the newer Oriental neutral paper? The stuff is pretty cold..Thanks..Evan Clarke
     
  7. Vlad Soare

    Vlad Soare Member

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    I was wrong here. I've looked more carefully, and there's a formula called T-55, which has only selenium. It contains sodium sulfite, and I think I had mistakenly read "sulfide". :redface:
    Does anyone know what the ammonium chloride does in this toner? What would happen if it were left out? Would the toner still work with just selenium powder and sodium sulfite?
     
  8. eclarke

    eclarke Member

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    I patronize a pharmacy here in Milwaukee who sells chemicals to medical and scientific labs and they stock all acids. They have never protested any of my acid purchases. Check the business pages where you live, plating suppliers may also be a source..Evan Clarke
     
  9. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber
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    It should work well with Ilford neutral paper :D

    I used it first back in the late 70's with Multigrade RC first & then later Multigrade FB and it was excellent with neutral papers.

    Not sure who's making the current Oriental paper, I only use Polywarmtone at the moment :smile:

    Ian
     
  10. eclarke

    eclarke Member

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    The new Polywarmtone??!! I sort of lost track of that, or are you hitting the freezer??:confused:..Evan
     
  11. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber
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    Darkroom stocks. One advantage of living a few thousand miles from mydarkroom is it's harder to waste paper :D

    Ian
     
  12. nworth

    nworth Subscriber

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    I was looking through a bunch of old toner formulas when I came across this:

    Gevaert G.420 hypo-sulfide toner
    A direct toner for brown tones on papers. It has a slight bleaching effect on the print, so the original should be somewhat darker than desired.

    Water (52C) 750 ml
    Sodium sulfide 75 g
    Sodium thiosulfate 500 g
    WTM 1 l

    Dilute 1:20 for use. Wash prints 5 minutes before treatment. Tone for 10 to 35 minutes depending on the paper and tone desired. Keep prints in motion during toning. After toning, wash and dry prints.

    The stock solution keeps indefinitely. Discard the working bath after use.

    It looks interesting, and quite simple. I don't have any sulfide at the moment, so I wasn't able to try it. If anyone wishes to try, I'd be interested in how it works.
     
  13. michaelbsc

    michaelbsc Member

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    The Muratic acid my local hardware store stocks is 31%. So clearly it is readily available, but there is no strict industry standard concentration.

    I guess this means you just need to pay attention and do the math.
     
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  15. RalphLambrecht

    RalphLambrecht Subscriber
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    There is always a way to make things more complicatedthan neccessary:wink:
     
  16. Sirius Glass

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    Moderators please make this thread a Sticky Thread.
     
  17. pentaxuser

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    +1.

    pentaxuser
     
  18. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator
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    Stuck.
     
  19. Sirius Glass

    Sirius Glass Subscriber
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    Thank you Dave Goldfarb. You have done everything important for this week. Take next week off and I will approve your time card.
     
  20. Tom Taylor

    Tom Taylor Member
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    Hi Ian,

    I'm interested in trying this formula. My question is:

    It call for 100mL of concentrated Hydrochloric Acid. I goggled and concentrated is considered 38% and PF sells a 31% concentration. Do you think using 100mL of 31% will work or should I use some other volume?

    Thanks,

    Thomas
     
  21. Tom Taylor

    Tom Taylor Member
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    It's been years since I last took a chemistry course and my old textbooks are in the storage shed. However I think I discovered my answer:

    38 divided by 31 times 100 = 122.58. If this is correct then I will need 123 mL of HCl.

    Thomas
     
  22. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber
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    Yes just increase the HCl.

    I tend these days to use Pyrocat HD as the re-veloper @ 1+1 to 10, simply because it lasts a bit longer and I have it on my shelf anyway. You can also vary the bleach to getb more subtle changes in image colour, I've used a Permanganate bleach and also a standard Ferricyanide/Bromide bleac and a Ferricyanide/Chloride bleach would be a touch warmer.

    With IT-8 the changes in image colour are from the intensifying effect & stain from the Dichromate bleach as well as the staining effect of the Pyrocatechin. It does have quite a noticeable intensifying action.

    Ian
     
  23. sfaber17

    sfaber17 Member

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    This reminds me of the quick and dirty brown toner I tried a long time ago. It worked pretty well. I haven't found a reference to it yet. I think it was just adding hydrochloric acid to fixer. Maybe it forms the sulfide.
     
  24. ColColt

    ColColt Member

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    All I've ever tried was Kodak's Selenium toner 1:9 followed by GP-1 Gold toner for ten minutes. It just barely changed the tone to a cool look but permanance was the main reason for it rather than a rash tone change.

    the two basic ingredients were Gold Chloride and Sodium Thiocyanate.

    *Gold Chloride(1% solution): 10ml
    Sodium Thiocyanate: 15.2 ml
    Water to make 1 liter

    *1 gm of Gold Chloride in 100ml water
     
  25. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    I would be interested in any thoughts, formula's on cold toners for the mid tone - shadow regions, post sepia and gold for the highlight regions.

    fyi - I have been using Iron Blue with minimal success - when it works its beautiful, when it doesn't a lot of prints go to the bin. Hard to take after all the steps taken and the last one is the killer.
     
  26. mcrouser

    mcrouser Member

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    Brown Toner Problems!

    Does anyone out there have trouble with Brown Toning since Ilford changed their FB paper? I have been toning for 20 years and have never had so many issues with blotchy areas, white borders picking up tone and also stains from the jets on my archival washer. It seems that if I siphon/tray wash, my white borders pick up tone, and if I use the archival washer I get the jet marks. There's plenty of salt in the water softener and my sediment filters are clean. This issue has repeated itself over and over. One printer has suggested that perhaps it's chlorine in the water, and recommends a charcoal filter. I have tried this yet, but I am about to. This problem has occurred with both Kodak and Legacy toner. Ilford has no suggestion, and swears no one else has had this problem. Any thoughts from anyone with direct experience in this would be most appreciated.

    Thank you,
    M. Crouser
     
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