The return of the Syrup: HC-110 in the water-free version manufactured again

[Alan Johnson]

I compared the Adox and former Kodak syrup versions. They were processed and scanned as near as possible identically.

former Kodak version:


Adox version:


Within the limits of experimental error I think they look the same.

 

[aoresteen]

That would be Ilfotec HC.

Well, I've used HP-5 since it was introduced in 1976 (HP-4 before that), and tried all the developers generally available including HC. HP-5 is my main B&W film. IMHO the best developer is HC-110 Dilution B. Period.

 

[runswithsizzers]

It's hard for me to keep all these "HC" and "110" developers straight. Ignoring the multiple Kodak versions, and looking only at Adox, I notice the product shown on Page 1 of this thread has this label:

... but when I go to the Freestyle website, I find a product with this label:

(Freestyle shows this product as, "not in stock - due September 16, 2025")

So my first question is this: Is "Adox HC-110 Pro" the same exact product as "Adox Syrup 110" -- or not?

The claim of "Extra-long shelf life" is one of the things that make me want to try some version of HC-110 developer. But what does that really mean?

So far, I have not been able to find a data sheet for HC-110 Pro from Adox. Their English website which shows the "ADOX FILM DEVELOPERS" does not even mention a "110" developer. And I cannot find a data sheet from either Fotoimpex or Freestyle. The description from Fotoimpex says it has "a basically infinite shelf life" -- which I assume is for the unopened bottle. But I am particularly interested in the working life for the stock solution (1+3) in full air-tight bottles.

Has anyone seen any official document from Adox that quotes any actual numbers for shelf life, especially once made into the stock solution?

 

[loccdor]

@runswithsizzers No one seems to know the shelf life of the "liquidy" HC-110 yet... I am still working through my bottle which is many years expired.

The syrupy one was supposed to last basically forever. But if the liquidy one can last 5-10 years I see no reason to prefer a harder to mix version.

Your pictures make me think their legal team recommended they drop the HC-110 name.

 

[Alan Johnson]

If you look here under downloads for MSDS Adox syrup 110 film developer it brings up the data for the Pro version:

ADOX SYRUP 110 FILM DEVELOPER 500ML

The

www.freestylephoto.com

This suggests that Syrup and Pro are identical.
Also it may not be a requirement to state that diethanolamine sulfite is included.
I am not familiar with the listing regulations but this explanation would fit what is known.

 

[MattKing]

The variation in name might have something to do with the current licensee for Kodak branded photo-chemicals no longer using HC-110 as their product name:

 

[runswithsizzers]

The variation in name might have something to do with the current licensee for Kodak branded photo-chemicals no longer using HC-110 as their product name:
View attachment 406946

Without either "HC" or "110" in it's name, I would have never guessed that this product has any connection to Kodak HC-110.

 

[MattKing]

The HC

Without either "HC" or "110" in it's name, I would have never guessed that this product has any connection to Kodak HC-110.

The "HC" in HC-110 almost certainly meant "Highly Concentrated".
From this well known HC-110 resource: https://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/

 

[runswithsizzers]

I guess I'm just totally out of touch, because I never heard of your well known resource, either. ;-)

 

[Alex Benjamin]

The HC


The "HC" in HC-110 almost certainly meant "Highly Concentrated".
From this well known HC-110 resource: https://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/
View attachment 406952

I've read, in other corners of the Web, that it means "High Contrast."

 

[MattKing]

I've read, in other corners of the Web, that it means "High Contrast."

Which would make no sense

 

[MattKing]

I guess I'm just totally out of touch, because I never heard of your well known resource, either. ;-)

The Kodak data sheets for HC-110 also describe it as "highly concentrated".
It has been around since 1962 - almost as long as me - and I've always understood that its name and its singular nature relates to its concentration

 

[mshchem]

I think how grateful people who operated labs were for the convenience of the original HC-110. Made life easier. I bet Kodak, in the day, sold as much of this in the replenisher form as the straight developer.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

Which would make no sense

I know.

Just goes to show how much nonsense one reads on the web.

 

[chuckroast]

Well, I've used HP-5 since it was introduced in 1976 (HP-4 before that), and tried all the developers generally available including HC. HP-5 is my main B&W film. IMHO the best developer is HC-110 Dilution B. Period.

It was my mainstay for years until I discovered Pyrocat-HDC. Now the the HC bottles sit there all lonely...

 

[chuckroast]

I know.

Just goes to show how much nonsense one reads on the web.

And given current pricing, I thought it meant Highly Cash-Intense

 

[MattKing]

And given current pricing, I thought it meant Highly Cash-Intense

I'm not totally sure of that.
$44 USD to develop ~166 rolls of film.
$0.27 per roll isn't as bad as it initially seems.
About half again as much as that for the ADOX version that this thread is based on.
Plus tax and shipping of course.

 

[chuckroast]

I'm not totally sure of that.
$44 USD to develop ~166 rolls of film.
$0.27 per roll isn't as bad as it initially seems.

I haven't done the math, but I strongly suspect I am paying far less than that for home-grown D-23, Pyrocat-HDC, Beutlers, etc.

HC-110 was great in its time and was my foundation for learning good negative management, but once I discovered PMK, it opened a rabbit hole of developer wonders from which I have yet to recover

 

[MattKing]

I haven't done the math, but I strongly suspect I am paying far less than that for home-grown D-23, Pyrocat-HDC, Beutlers, etc.

An apples and oranges comparison though.
(Relative) ease of use, minimal storage space requirements, no need for experience mixing from constituent parts using scales or precise volumetric measurements, easily transported to borrowed darkroom facilities, easily shared between groups of users.
All sorts of use characteristics that make it (HC-110) much more appropriate for a lot of users who are a very different target market than the one you fit into.
And most likely, a much larger target market than the one you fit into.
As someone who really can't set things up for mixing my own developers - temporary darkroom space and a need to store things a bit of a distance away from where I actually use them - I'm more in the HC-110 market as well.

 

[runswithsizzers]

The Kodak data sheets for HC-110 also describe it as "highly concentrated".

I did find a data sheet for Kodak HC-110, J-24, from Alaris dated Dec. 2017. So far, I have not found a data sheet for the new renamed version.

I am still trying to get my head around the similarities and differences between the several variations of HC-110 developer.

KODAK PROFESSIONAL HIGH CONCENTRATE B&W FILM DEVELOPER
I'm guessing this is a more liquid and less viscous variation? I am basing that on this sentence in the Description on the Photo Systems product page.
"This liquid concentrate allows users to mix up just enough concentrate with water to make a single-use solution of the volume required by their developing tank."
Neither Photo Systems Inc. nor CineStill Film provide a link on their product page to anything like a data sheet or instructions for use.

Contrast that with
ILFORD ILFOTEC HC
Ilford has an actual up-to-date Data Sheet (something Photo Systems Inc. and Adox apparently do not provide). In Ilford's data sheet, it says,
"It is very difficult to measure accurately small quantities of ILFOTEC HC concentrate. For this reason, we
recommend that the whole bottle of concentrate is diluted to form a stock solution, which is diluted further for
use.
Stock developer is prepared by diluting the concentrate 1+3 with water." and, "Once opened use completely to make stock solutions."

and,
ADOX HC-110 PRO is advertised as "Original Syrup" -- so probably more like the Ilford product than the current Kodak version, right? So does Ilford's recommendation to use the whole bottle to make a 1+3 stock solution apply to the Adox product, too? In the absence of use instructions from Adox, I'm just guessing.

All three HC-110 variations make a big deal about long shelf life, but only Ilford is giving any numbers.
In the Ilford data sheet it says,
"If stored in cool conditions, 5–20ºC (41–68ºF), ILFOTEC HC stock solutions will keep for up to
6 months in full tightly capped bottles, 2 months in half full bottles."

The Kodak-Alaris data sheet from Dec. 2017 also says a stock solution of Kodak HC-110 has a 6-month storage life, but it is unclear if that would also be true for the new-name version.

So how is a 6 month storage life something to brag about? No different from a stock solution of Xtol or D-76.

 

[F4U]

All these HC 110 copcats and clones... Never even ever used it, even when Kodak was what it once was. Will the Kodak HC 110 please stand up? Now, on with my prime question: If I am a happy D23 user, is HC 110 anything like that in time, temperature, and results? Thank you.
Edit: Kodak should have never given away their formulas and permissions to replicate. BIG mistake.

 

[MattKing]

The Kodak-Alaris data sheet from Dec. 2017 also says a stock solution of Kodak HC-110 has a 6-month storage life, but it is unclear if that would also be true for the new-name version.

That refers to the stock solution, not the concentrate right out of the bottle.
You make the stock solution by diluting the concentrate 1 + 3. That was what commercial labs and other high volume users did/do.
The old, original HC-110 - the one formerly made by Eastman Kodak, then made under contract for Eastman Kodak, then made under contract for Kodak Alaris, until Tetenal went bankrupt - i.e, the really viscous stuff - was the one with legendary longevity - so legendary that no longevity information was included in the datasheet.
After Tetenal went bankrupt, and the really complex and expensive mode of manufacturing the really viscous stuff went away, a new version of still concentrated stuff replaced it. That version was designed to perform and did perform in essentially the same way as the old, really viscous stuff.
J-24, describes the care that one needed and still need to take when mixing working strength dilutions direct from concentrate. You will note that there isn't any storage life information on J-24 for the concentrate, and that is because even the less viscous post Tetenal bankruptcy stuff appears to have very long life. It is only the change in the MSDS that gives a clue that the long life is unlikely to be as legendary.
As for Photo Systems not providing new datasheets, they appear to have designed their production to emulate accurately the former performance of the various products they are manufacturing under the Kodak name. Their High Concentrate developer - "Same Great product with a new Name" is probably exactly the same as the less viscous version of HC-110. In fact, they were likely the ones making that HC-110 version for Kodak Alaris, followed by Sino Promise. As a result of the design for emulation approach, they appear to be happy to rely on the datasheets for developers that are still hosted on the Kodak Alaris site.

 

[Alan Johnson]

We have been here before. The Photo Systems product is based on potassium sulfite and presumably water:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0339/5113/files/1058692_Photo_Systems_Inc._KODAK_PROFESSIONAL_HC_Developer_1265749_US-en_v5_07.26.24.pdf?v=1724861803

The SDS is at the foot of this page:

KODAK PROFESSIONAL

KODAK PROFESSIONAL Photographic Chemistry and Imaging Solutions

kodak.photosys.com

The original Kodak version used diethanolamine sulfite and is reputed to be water free.

 

[F4U]

That refers to the stock solution, not the concentrate right out of the bottle.
You make the stock solution by diluting the concentrate 1 + 3. That was what commercial labs and other high volume users did/do.
The old, original HC-110 - the one formerly made by Eastman Kodak, then made under contract for Eastman Kodak, then made under contract for Kodak Alaris, until Tetenal went bankrupt - i.e, the really viscous stuff - was the one with legendary longevity - so legendary that no longevity information was included in the datasheet.
After Tetenal went bankrupt, and the really complex and expensive mode of manufacturing the really viscous stuff went away, a new version of still concentrated stuff replaced it. That version was designed to perform and did perform in essentially the same way as the old, really viscous stuff.
J-24, describes the care that one needed and still need to take when mixing working strength dilutions direct from concentrate. You will note that there isn't any storage life information on J-24 for the concentrate, and that is because even the less viscous post Tetenal bankruptcy stuff appears to have very long life. It is only the change in the MSDS that gives a clue that the long life is unlikely to be as legendary.
As for Photo Systems not providing new datasheets, they appear to have designed their production to emulate accurately the former performance of the various products they are manufacturing under the Kodak name. Their High Concentrate developer - "Same Great product with a new Name" is probably exactly the same as the less viscous version of HC-110. In fact, they were likely the ones making that HC-110 version for Kodak Alaris, followed by Sino Promise. As a result of the design for emulation approach, they appear to be happy to rely on the datasheets for developers that are still hosted on the Kodak Alaris site.

So, does that mean that the same product that is the subject of this thread is the real stuff?

 

[runswithsizzers]

Is it accurate to say:
All HC-110 varients have a very long shelf life as long as the bottle is unopened
An unopened bottle of the viscous (water free) versions probably won't last any longer than the thinner versions?
Once made into a 1+3 stock solution, the HC-110 developers storage life is no better than many other stock solutions
Manufacturers of the viscous varients recommend mixing the whole bottle to a 1+3 stock solution when the bottle is opened
yes? no?

If the above is true, then it seems to me a bottle of the thinner HC-110 developer (like Kodak Professional High Concentrate) might have a longer working life than the viscous type (like Ilfotc HC or the new Adox). By "working life" I mean the time between developing the first roll from the bottle and the time when the developer goes bad. Because the thin stuff can be measured to make up only what you need today, the unused portion of the bottle remains concentrated, and therefore retains its undiluted storage life -- unlike the thick stuff that gets diluted to a stock solution on day one.

I say "might have a longer life" because I still don't know how long we can expect the water-based concentrated developer to last if it is in an opened bottle which is less than full. If it's more than 6 months, then the thin ones would have an advantage over the thick ones, right?