Testing and evaluating CatLabs "X Film 320 Pro (2022 version)

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pentaxuser

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Until we can get an H&D curve that we can be sure represents the true curve from which an ISO can be established and a spectral response that is equally valid then it is difficult to be sure of the film's pros and cons

I have ideas from what I have seen so far about its ISO from pics at various speeds and there is the elements of a conclusion to be reached on its contrast and handling of shadow detail from those pics but I'd rather not speculate until the real info is clearer

pentaxuser
 
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MattKing

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...but is there any scenario where you buy ten rolls the new CatLabs film and use it to take pictures?

When he knows a bit more about the film before he spends his money - that is what this thread is intended to help with.
 
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...we had at least one complaint...

Is that a change in moderation policy? Sean has written on several occasions that multiple reports are the threshold for action. :smile:

I've deleted a bunch of Sal's posts here, along with some responses thereto...

Note that my posts you deleted were responses to others', so I'm not sure why you decided to name me and not them. Also, is there a new PHOTRIO moderation standard that off-topic posts will be deleted?
 

MattKing

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If you have comments about moderation - they belong elsewhere.
And to Sal - do you want your posts restored and moved to the thread about CatLabs and their film announcement, rather than our experiences with the new CatLabs film?
 

Donald Qualls

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@BradS FWIW, the next film to go in my RB67 will be the CatLabs 320 (got to finish a roll of GP3 100 in 220 format first -- five or six frames left). Or I might load a roll in the Graflex 23 back for my Century. Eight frames doesn't take long to get through. Then of course, there's the backlog in my darkroom...
 

ic-racer

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Until we can get an H&D curve that we can be sure represents the true curve from which an ISO can be established and a spectral response that is equally valid then it is difficult to be sure of the film's pros and cons

I have ideas from what I have seen so far about its ISO from pics at various speeds and there is the elements of a conclusion to be reached on its contrast and handling of shadow detail from those pics but I'd rather not speculate until the real info is clearer

pentaxuser

Maybe I missed something but the OP posts read as if OP did do an ISO test on the film.
 
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If you have comments about moderation - they belong elsewhere...

They were questions specific to actions taken in this thread, not "comments."

...to Sal - do you want your posts restored and moved to the thread about CatLabs and their film announcement, rather than our experiences with the new CatLabs film?

Where they'd be totally out of context and make no sense? Thanks, but no need.
 

BradS

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@BradS FWIW, the next film to go in my RB67 will be the CatLabs 320 (got to finish a roll of GP3 100 in 220 format first -- five or six frames left). Or I might load a roll in the Graflex 23 back for my Century. Eight frames doesn't take long to get through. Then of course, there's the backlog in my darkroom...

That's great Donald. Good for you. I look forward to seeing your results.
 

pentaxuser

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Maybe I missed something but the OP posts read as if OP did do an ISO test on the film.

Yes aparat has done a lot of work but I had the impression that aparat considered there was more to be done before finally pronouncing on the ISO

If indeed I have misinterpreted where aparat ended up and he has finished his work and reached a definitive value on which he is satisfied then I am sure he will say so

pentaxuser
 

BrianShaw

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...but I had the impression that aparat considered there was more to be done before finally pronouncing on the ISO... reached a definitive value..,

If that is what you are waiting upon, you might want to stop holding your breath or reiterating such expectations. A "final pronouncement" may never be forthcoming. Aparat appears to be a very smart and intelligent individual who is testing and providing the data for our consideration rather than performing the independent testing required to "certify" a film speed rating.

It is easy to get lost in the details of these threads but post #42 clarified the testing intent for me: relative rather than absolute. He/she/it, whichever pronoun might be appropriate (I shall not guess), can clarify if so desired. I appreciate the testing efforts, struggle to understand the details, and value both the analytic and practical testing that is ongoing by all involved. If only they matched a bit better...

:smile:
 
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pentaxuser

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You may be right Brian in #185 but it was my impression there there had been further developments since those far-off days of aparat's #42 but as I said aparat can reply and state where his findings on ISO has finally taken him assuming he has reached the end.

pentaxuser
 

BrianShaw

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You may be right Brian in #185 but it was my impression there there had been further developments since those far-off days of aparat's #42 but as I said aparat can reply and state where his findings on ISO has finally taken him assuming he has reached the end.

pentaxuser

My understanding, which could be faulty and is not concerned with minor differences: 80-ish seems to be a fair number as a tested/actual film speed value. Dwight's practical examples (post #120) seem to validate that, also. EI 200 (as specified by the vendor) seems usable in practice by others.

There isn't much question as to how I will start exposing this film. :smile:

Although, the question I think I asked yet can't remember either asking or an answer... is there any appreciable difference between how the 35mm or the 120 tests/performs? I assume that the film bases are different in at least thickness.
 
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warden

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It'll be interesting to see if anyone tries the dev time for iso 1600 on the Catlabs site. They claim at iso 1600 the benefit is maximum speed with unpredictable results.
 

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Anyone monkey around with their scans, either in the scanning software or subsequent digital editing software, before posting their images?
 

ic-racer

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Yes aparat has done a lot of work but I had the impression that aparat considered there was more to be done before finally pronouncing on the ISO

If indeed I have misinterpreted where aparat ended up and he has finished his work and reached a definitive value on which he is satisfied then I am sure he will say so

pentaxuser

Ok, maybe something to do with the discussion of the specific film (which I will stay out of) became heated. But his methodology matches ISO, specifically with respect to development conditions which are NOT DICTATED by ISO.

So, my reading is that the results he reported for his development conditions are indeed the results he got for his development conditions. The results are valid for what they are. I don't think he made a mistake or is consciously trying to post inaccurate information.

ISO-6 1993
5.4.2 Processing specifications
The only processing specification required in this International Standard is that the density difference between point m an n shall be 0.80. No additional processing specifications are included...

Screen Shot 2022-10-19 at 1.54.11 PM.png
 

pentaxuser

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It'll be interesting to see if anyone tries the dev time for iso 1600 on the Catlabs site. They claim at iso 1600 the benefit is maximum speed with unpredictable results.

If that is a reasonable summary of CatLAB'S statement then couldn't that apply to almost any film in terms of unpredictable results? Was there any attempt to qualify what it meant in terms of the kind of unpredictable results which are likely to occur?

Is it possible to copy and paste what it actually said?

Thanks

pentaxuser
 

pentaxuser

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Thanks ic-racer for #190. Am I right in assuming that for all intents and purposes, your belief is that what aparat did in his test results is a valid ISO for the film and one which if Kodak had done its results would be the same or very close to that which aparat produced.

That is if say aparat's result was a speed of 80 then that the speed produced by Kodak is likely to be within what fraction of a stop either way?

Thanks
 

warden

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If that is a reasonable summary of CatLAB'S statement then couldn't that apply to almost any film in terms of unpredictable results? Was there any attempt to qualify what it meant in terms of the kind of unpredictable results which are likely to occur?

Is it possible to copy and paste what it actually said?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Scroll to the bottom of this page. :smile:

 

ic-racer

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Thanks ic-racer for #190. Am I right in assuming that for all intents and purposes, your belief is that what aparat did in his test results is a valid ISO for the film and one which if Kodak had done its results would be the same or very close to that which aparat produced.

That is if say aparat's result was a speed of 80 then that the speed produced by Kodak is likely to be within what fraction of a stop either way?

Thanks

The ISO document is copyright protected, but I can paraphrase some of the items:

In addition to the processing specifications I listed above here are some more items. Enough to give anyone here the knowledge to perform the test:


Use Diffuse type 2 densitometer
Calibration of sensitometer so X axis of H&D curve error is less than 0.05 log10
Kept at 23 +/-2 C with humidity 50% after sensitometer exposure before processing
Sensitometer light can be daylight, studio tungsten, or photoflood, but the light type has to be specified with the ISO.
Exposure under sensitometer can be from 5 seconds to 1/1000 (Wejex to EG&G). Needs to be specified (which manufacture actually specifies this?)
Step wedge neutral density needs less than 5% variation in transmission from 400nm to 700nm.

This part is stricter than the development instructions (which say 'anything goes') and has a whole thread here ( https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/latent-image-stability.76909/ )
PRO FILMS (not defined): Process between 4 hours and 7 days
General Purpose Film (not defined): Process between 5 and 10 days
 
OP
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aparat

aparat

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I have finished doing my basic “curve family” analysis of the Catlabs Pro 320 film (35 mm version). There’s a lot to unpack, and still more to come, so I will try to present this in chunks, rather than all at once. My thanks to Catlabs for shipping the film very promptly! The obvious disclaimer is that these results are meant to be approximate, “ballpark” estimates of the film’s performance. As they say, YMMV.
20221020_124517.jpg

First of all, the Catlabs film produces somewhat unusual-looking curves, which makes them challenging to model and analyze. It took me a few attempts before I decided on the “correct” exposure for the test. In the end, I settled on the amount of exposure I typically use for ISO 100 films, such as Ilford Delta and Ilford FP4 Plus. The exposure ends up being around 3.35 Millilux Seconds in my DIY uncalibrated sensitometer. The reason I had to use this DIY device was to avoid using exposures upwards of 1 second, which would have been necessary with my calibrated sensitometer. Below, please, compare a typical curve family of Ilford FP4 Plus with that of Catlabs Pro 320, both families of curves obtained by the same DIY device, and processed in the same way. The comparison is just for the overall shapes of the curves, nothing else.

ilfordFP4Family_WinPlotter.png
catLabs320_Family_Plotter.png

Next, I want to address the question of ISO speed. You will see from this particular analysis that the “ideal” ISO curve (in pink) obtains the speed of around ISO 65, using the 0.1 criterion. As @MattKing , @ic-racer , and others pointed out, the “actual” speed will likely be a bit higher for people who judge photographs visually, i.e., actual photographers 😀. For example, the 0.3G (Fractional Gradient) criterion, which has been argued to be closely correlated with so-called “print-judgment speeds,” obtains speeds that are, on average, a stop or so greater. See the summary table for the Log Exposure values at the 0.3G speed point and compare them to the ISO 0.1 speed points (“Emin” values on each individual curve plot, pp. 4-8). This would explain, I think, the fact that people are exposing this film at EI 100 and EI 200 and getting very nice results. Of course, there are other factors at play, such as processing, scanning, viewing, printing, etc.). I will show this sped-point effect in more detail later.

The last thing I want to mention today is the comparison between the results obtained by the BTZS application, Win Plotter, and those obtained by my own program (it doesn’t have a name). I chose a Win Plotter type of analysis, using relative log exposure values (among other things), to make this comparison useful. By and large, the results are consistent. The differences stem from, mainly, the differences in algorithms for modeling the curves and interpolation schemes. I do not know how Phil Davis modeled the curves and what kind of interpolation (and extrapolation) he used, so I cannot make my results identical to his. Also, as you can see on page 2 of the Win Plotter output and page 3 of mine, the ISO triangle is in a slightly different spot. The hypothetical ISO curve (plotted in pink) is supposed to have the slope of G=0.62. This would put it “above” (or in front of) of the 5:45 min. curve (as in my output), and not “below” (or behind) it (as in Win Plotter). My guess is that the discrepancy is caused the the difficulty in modeling these Catlabs curves, but that is just a guess. The difference in speed is immaterial, in my opinion.

There’s more coming soon.
 

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warden

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I have finished doing my basic “curve family” analysis of the Catlabs Pro 320 film
Nick, thanks so much. This has been an enjoyable process and I've learned a few things, although I don't have the skills to fully grasp the testing you've done like some others here do.

So a question for you: If you were using this film, how would you expose it if you were after the best overall performance? By "best overall performance" I'm referring in this case to recording as much information as possible without excessive contrast, i.e. empty shadows and/or blocked highlights.

With that goal in mind and after seeing your test results I would lean toward exposing a normal scene at ISO100 and adjust the processing to suit that ISO, but I'd like to hear your take on it.

And a second question, from someone that has seen Ilford-looking smooth curves like you've shown, but not the lumpy Catlabs curves that you are showing here. I would not expect Ilford quality film for the price Catlabs has managed to achieve so I don't want this to sound nit-picky, but those curves are curious looking. Do you have any comments about why they might look the way that they do?
 
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OP
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aparat

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Nick, thanks so much. This has been an enjoyable process and I've learned a few things, although I don't have the skills to fully grasp the testing you've done like some others here do.

So a question for you: If you were using this film, how would you expose it if you were after the best overall performance? By "best overall performance" I'm referring in this case to recording as much information as possible without excessive contrast, i.e. empty shadows and/or blocked highlights.

With that goal in mind and after seeing your test results I would lean toward exposing a normal scene at ISO100 and adjust the processing to suit that ISO, but I'd like to hear your take on it.

And a second question, from someone that has seen Ilford-looking smooth curves like you've shown, but not the lumpy Catlabs curves that you are showing here. I would not expect Ilford quality film for the price Catlabs has managed to achieve so I don't want this to sound nit-picky, but those curves are curious looking. Do you have any comments about why they might look the way that they do?
No problem. Great questions! I was going to address these questions later, but I might as well try now.

So, in general, with this kind of film test, you want to look at plot of SBR vs. Effective Film Speed, where SBR stands for "Subject Brightness Range" in stops. This is a term, I believe, adopted by the Beyond the Zone System method, and it stands for the luminance range from shadows to highlights that the photographer measured and decided was important to capture on film. So, if you see below, for a "typical" scene of, say, 7 stops, one will need to expose the film for ISO 50 and develop for about 5 minutes. Zone System photographers, who expose and process one sheet at a time and who want to capture a lot of shadow detail, would probably do it that way.
sbr_iso.png

But, the ISO method is not necessarily all that realistic or practical. People who did this research decades ago found that, for example, the Fractional Gradient (0.3G) method gives a more real-world film speed. Here's a plot of the 8 minute curve, analyzed in that manner. It "shifts" the speed point all the way to the ISO 200 mark or so. I cannot guarantee that this will be more realistic for you, but there it is.
fractIndex8min.png

So, based on this test, what I would do in a typical scene outdoors (say about 6-7 stops), I would probably set my meter to ISO 100 and develop for maybe 20% less time, so maybe around 6-6:30 minutes. That's just an estimate, based on the 0.3G analysis. Finally, these numbers should also be corrected for lens flare, which I haven't done yet. It's kind of tough to do because everybody's lenses are different, and so is flare.
 

Romanko

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I would not expect Ilford quality film for the price Catlabs has managed to achieve

$8.99 vs $9.00?
 
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