Slide with Harman Phoenix 200

[brbo]

The only positive (excuse the pun) news is that when they finally make a decent version of Phoenix, it might only need fairly minor further development to make a transparency film to rival Provia 100f. Wishful thinking perhaps but why not dream?

Yes, wishful thinking I'm afraid. The more they improve Phoenix to be a better C-41 film the less suitable it will be as a reversal film.

 

[ChrisGalway]

Yes, wishful thinking I'm afraid. The more they improve Phoenix to be a better C-41 film the less suitable it will be as a reversal film.

Why's that?

 

[koraks]

Why's that?

Steps towards maturity would involve adding masking and also taming gamma. Especially the former will be an impediment to alternative use as a slide film. The latter may also have implications for e.g. dmax.

 

[ChrisGalway]

Ah, I see now! Thanks.

 

[lamerko]

I suppose that the realization of an effective mask is a very complicated thing. At the same time, adding a colloidal layer, present in reversible films, should not be very complicated. Of course, this alone will not produce a real slide film, but I see no reason to start in two directions...

 

[koraks]

At the same time, adding a colloidal layer, present in reversible films, should not be very complicated.

Why would they do this, though? The yellow coloration to the first wash suggests (as per interpretation of @Lachlan Young earlier on this forum) that Harman leverages a dye-based yellow filter system, which eliminates the necessity of a Cary Lea silver filter layer. I do agree that it's counterintuitive that Harman at this junction would attempt to make a positive film based on Phoenix, although selling it perhaps with a complementary chemistry kit as such might be in line with their existing multi-purpose marketing strategy.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Why would they do this, though? The yellow coloration to the first wash suggests (as per interpretation of @Lachlan Young earlier on this forum) that Harman leverages a dye-based yellow filter system, which eliminates the necessity of a Cary Lea silver filter layer. I do agree that it's counterintuitive that Harman at this junction would attempt to make a positive film based on Phoenix, although selling it perhaps with a complementary chemistry kit as such might be in line with their existing multi-purpose marketing strategy.

Harman disclosed somewhere (might have been one of the videos) that the yellow filter layer is dye based - the shift from CLS to dye generally seems to have happened during the 1990's, but only on new products, so older ones still in production probably kept it until they were revised thoroughly/ withdrawn.

Unless Harman instigates a CD-3 coupler programme, I don't think they'll be doing an official 'positive' E-6 version of Phoenix - that it is somewhat successfully cross-processable is more a phenomena of this stage in R&D - as you say, the successful integration of masking couplers will end any real usefulness for cross-process, but put the colour rendering/ contrast very much closer to where it should be - all the weirdness of the current product is purely to ensure that the masking will work correctly. The other thing no one seems to have noticed is that Ilford could make a much contrastier XP2 if they wanted...

 

[Oblidor]

I would share some test for get slides from Phoenix 200.
The speed is quite low, at 16 ISO there is the best balance between highlight and shadows. Color balance is quite good and color fidelity is like the Phoenix in C-41, brilliant reds and blues but yellow, orange and caucasian skin tones are lacking hue and saturation. Looking at the grayscale of the color-checker there is just a bit of cross-color with warm highlight and cold/greenish shadows.
This was the Process I used:
First developer Kodak HC-110 (old formula "Original Syrup") 1+19 for 6'30" @ 38°C
4 water rinses of 30" each
Inversion exposing the reel at a 400w halogen lamps for a total of 4', flipping upside down the reel after 2'
Color developer of Bellini C-41 kit for 3' @ 38°C
4 water rinses of 30" each
ECN-2 ferrycianide bleach (SR-29) for 5' @ 38°C
4 water rinses of 30" each
Rollei RXN neutral fixer 1+4 for 5' @ 38°C
wash
C-41 stabilizer

These are scans of the transparencies:
View attachment 394367 View attachment 394368 View attachment 394369 View attachment 394370 View attachment 394371 View attachment 394372 View attachment 394373 View attachment 394374 View attachment 394375

ISO 16 ? Did you mean 160? The three passport colour checkers photos, what where the settings ISO and EV?

 

[chromemax]

ISO 16 ? Did you mean 160? The three passport colour checkers photos, what where the settings ISO and EV?

I mean 16 ISO.
For the three colorchecker photos the exposure was taken with sekonic 858d light Meter in incident mode and ISO 20.
Camera was a Nikon f90 (no X) with Nikon SE 50mm f/1.8 in manuale mode. The frame on the left was exposed following the meter reading, the frame on the center at +0,5 stop and the frame on the right at +1 stop.
Looking at bottom row of colorchecker of the 20 ISO frame you can see that light values are well separate but shadow are too dark. The opposite in the centrale frame (the frame on the right is clearly overexposed), meaning that the right film speed is between 20 ISO and 20 minus half stop ISO, so 16 is a good choice.

These were exposed with Leica R9 in Program and Matrix with film Speed at 16.

 

[loccdor]

One more Phoenix reversal, I think in soft light the way it picks up colors is beautiful.

 

[Meinrad]

very nice, i like the blue tones of Phoenix, the greens are a little bit weak i also noticed with my tries…

 

[chromemax]

Nice shoot

 

[BHuij]

Really nice shot.

 

[Oxleyroad]

Brilliant work @chromemax .

I’m going to try this too as I used to process a lot of c41 as reversal. I‘m in the process of building a new darkroom because I have a new home, and as soon as I can I’ll try the Harmon Phoenix and the ORWO NC films Processed this way.

 

[ChrisGalway]

@chromemax.

You are close to inspiring me to actually try reversal processing Phoenix for fun (I never thought I would try Phoenix, it's so "bad"!).

I understand you were deliberately using chemicals you already had, but all I've got on hand is an Adox E6 kit. Is using this kit doomed to failure, and if so, why (e.g. CD3/CD4 problem)? And if not, can you suggest a starting ISO for me?

 

[chromemax]

@chromemax.

You are close to inspiring me to actually try reversal processing Phoenix for fun (I never thought I would try Phoenix, it's so "bad"!).

I understand you were deliberately using chemicals you already had, but all I've got on hand is an Adox E6 kit. Is using this kit doomed to failure, and if so, why (e.g. CD3/CD4 problem)? And if not, can you suggest a starting ISO for me?

On Internet I found some report of Phoenix 200 cross-processed in E6 with heavy blue cast that can't be corrected with an 80A conversion filter and barely fixed with scanning and post-production. Indeed both E6 bleach and fixer can be used for Phoenix inversion and may be first developer too, but I think some tests for ISO setting and contrast is needed

 

[lamerko]

There is some suggestion that chemical reversal gives color casts. It needs to be tested with a re-exposure.

 

[spacetuna]

Fantastic results @chromemax @loccdor !

What agitation technique did you use for the first developer?

 

[loccdor]

@spacetuna for color processing I've done roughly 4 inversions every 30 seconds for short developments or every minute for longer ones.

If I tried this again, in order to help tame the contrast I would err on the side of less agitation.

In normal C-41 processing with lower contrast films I've found it very easy to get edge effects with inverting every minute, so constant agitation does seem to be better there if you don't want that.

 

[albireo]

One more Phoenix reversal, I think in soft light the way it picks up colors is beautiful.

View attachment 396097

Stunning!

 

[loccdor]

I am going to try the Phoenix C-41 reversal again, this time with 6x6, using the Autocord.

It will be a couples shoot tomorrow with my wife using the self timer in a park under shade trees.

In order to tame the contrast, I'm going to try using this old, cloudy Vivitar cross screen filter. I hope it helps.

Before and after with the filter:

 

[spacetuna]

So, I shot a test roll with my Rolleicord III with Xenar and rolleikin 35mm adapter.

Metered with Sekonic l-308x. Mostly incident metering.

All scanned with Epson V550 and Epson scan program.

Quick disclaimer: I decided to rate film at 25, 20 and 16 ISO. Why? Because I was afraid that my shutter might be not accurate enough for 16 ISO and narrow dynamic range. And somethimes when I just took one photo I metered for 20 ISO… Turned out I was wrong about my shutter. Oh and there are some light leaks here and there, all my stupid fault.


Here are my processing steps (all with sous vide):

5min pre-wash @ 38C

6,5min BW developer – Adox 110 1+19 @ 38C

4 x water rinse 30s each @ 38C

4min exposure to light ( my wife’s white light led lamp) in transparent plastic beaker filled with water. Reel fliped after 2min.

*extra step – I realized that temperature has dropped a bit so after puting film back in dev. tank I filled it with water and put for 3min in sous vide to bring it back to 38C before the next step.

3.5 min Color developer – Adox c-tec c-41 - @ 38C (It was roll No. 7 in this chemicals thus longer time)

4 x water rinse 30s each @ 38C

12 min Blix - Adox c-tec c-41 - @ 38C (It was roll No. 7 in this chemicals thus longer time – should be 6min but I understood that for reversal processing I should double the time)

6 min water rinse

1 min stabiliser



Conclusion:

1. Shadows go off super fast.

2. ISO 25 garbage. ISO 20 usable, 16 good, I want to try 12 next rime.

3. Indoor shots were quite interesting, I feel like reciprocity failure kicked in quite fast. Shots that were metered at 16 with ½ shutterspeed could use more light. Shots with 1 sec. Shutterspeed definately need more light. But it might be also my metering error.

4. I also had a redish tint. It’s super easy to correct while scanning. I dont think it would bother me during projection but I dont have slide projector so I can’t really test it.

5. I love those punchy colors, high contrast and crushed shadows. I actually prefer these colors over standard Phoenix color palette.



Question:

For all of you who have more experience that me (it was my first reversal processing!). My unexposed film base is not complately black. Its very dark but still a bit transparent. Does it mean I did something wrong? Should do a longer light exposure or something?

 

[koraks]

The film might need as much light as those plants do, hehe

 

[spacetuna]

The film might need as much light as those plants do, hehe

@koraks I like to combine both of my passions.

 

[loccdor]

@spacetuna

Good job, I'll try to develop mine I took with the cloudy filter in the next couple days to share and see if it helps the shadows.

My film base isn't completely black either, but I just chalk it up to not being designed for this process.

The real speed when done this way is definitely in the range of 12-16. 12 will look a little better unless there are bright highlights to blow out.

Ilford gives the following reciprocity data (formula is time to the power of 1.31):
1 -> 1
2 -> 2.5
3 -> 4
4 -> 6
5-> 8
6 -> 11
8 -> 15
10 -> 20
12 -> 25
15-> 35
20 -> 50
30 -> 1.5 minutes
45 -> 2.5 minutes
60 -> 3 minutes
120 -> 9 minutes

My shots where I corrected 4 second meter to 8 seconds look good, maybe just a touch bright.