Slide with Harman Phoenix 200

spacetuna

Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2022
Messages
4
Location
Magdeburg, Germany
Format
Multi Format
@loccdor thanks! I'm really looking forward to see your results on 6x6!
I wonder if the base color is a result of us using regular blix, while chromemax used SR-29 bleach and neutral fixer.

@chromemax your results don't have any redish color shifts, right?

Regarding contrast... this will sound crazy but what if we would pull it one stop? To ISO 6 or 8 would that help a bit? (It's still bigger ISO than the wet plate!!!)
I mean I like it the way it is right now. But I also understand that one might want at least some shadow detail.
 

loccdor

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 12, 2024
Messages
1,503
Location
USA
Format
Multi Format
I'm not familiar enough with this C-41 reversal process to know if pulling on the first developer will work. If I recall correctly, slide films aren't recommending for pulling, but can push well, so my instinct is that things might fall apart.
 
OP
OP

chromemax

Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2009
Messages
44
Location
Monza e dell
Format
Multi Format



When used as color negative film Phoenix has strong color crossover with cyan highlights, so it would be strange if same behaviour had not been shown using Phoenix 200 as slide. Looking at gray squares of colorchecker (scans in my first post) you can see a crossover with light pink highlights and cyan shadows. In post #13 I read the base+fog and the maximum black with a color densitometer comparing with maximum black of some slide film of 20 years ago and the D-max imho is comparable but also the densitometer show a cyan cast on the blacks.

Phoenix is indeed a young color film and may be that is for its "youth" that inversion is so successfull with this film, but the imperfect color balance is inherent in this film: intepreting Harman's words, at this stage of development the Phoenix 200 is a "beta version" film.

I'm sorry for delays in my reply and in my research for best results with the inversion of the Phoenix but I have a broken leg due to a motorcycle accident and I can't go upstairs in to my darkroom and all my photographic activity is stopped for the next two months.
 

loccdor

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 12, 2024
Messages
1,503
Location
USA
Format
Multi Format

loccdor

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 12, 2024
Messages
1,503
Location
USA
Format
Multi Format
loccdor said:
In order to tame the contrast, I'm going to try using this old, cloudy Vivitar cross screen filter. I hope it helps.
Click to expand...

Well, here are my results with the Autocord and the cloudy filter. While it did help me get more shadow detail, it also made colorful veiling flares and bloom all over the place that can't really be corrected, so not much of a solution. This was at f/8 and 1/4 second if I recall correctly, metered at 16 for the shadows, possibly underdeveloped although couldn't have been by much.

I ended up preferring the black and white conversion. I think that will be it for my Phoenix reversal experiments, I just can't nail it down enough to get consistency in the results. 50x25mm crop. Maybe good for XPro lovers?

 

Yezishu

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2024
Messages
125
Location
Hong Kong
Format
35mm
Thanks for all the pioneering experiments and wish @chromemax a speedy recovery.
I tried Phoenix 200 reversal process with ISO 12. First development HC110 1:19 @38°C and 6m30s, followed by reversal exposure. With general C41 color development, bleaching, and fixing.
It performs well in good lighting conditions, but the exposure latitude is a little low, resulting in highlights appearing warm and shadows appearing cold. The sunset, flowers, and night scenes(ISO?) might be a good idea, but portraits are not so great.
 

Attachments

  • _DSC5691_DxO_副本.jpg
    1.4 MB · Views: 105
  • _DSC5692_DxO_副本.jpg
    1.7 MB · Views: 91
  • _DSC5693_DxO_副本.jpg
    1.3 MB · Views: 89
  • _DSC5696_DxO_副本.jpg
    1.2 MB · Views: 107

loccdor

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 12, 2024
Messages
1,503
Location
USA
Format
Multi Format
@Yezishu I like those results and to me it's looking better with blown highlights than underexposed. It is hard to use! My rolls were mostly filled with barely visible slides even though I hadn't done much of a processing difference with my last one, and even though on one of the rolls I went out with very flat light (it was raining) and carefully used incident metering.
 

Chan Tran

Subscriber
Joined
May 10, 2006
Messages
6,816
Location
Sachse, TX
Format
35mm

I don't know how the slides would look on the light table or projected but that's the important thing. Enhance the contrast after scan doesn't make much sense because if the scan is what you want then simply process as negative then scan.
 

loccdor

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 12, 2024
Messages
1,503
Location
USA
Format
Multi Format
You'll end up with very different results. Grain will be much higher if processed as negative for example. Many people use slide film with the intention to scan, and in the old days of wet dark rooms a lot of photographers preferred slide even though their final goal was a print.
 

Chan Tran

Subscriber
Joined
May 10, 2006
Messages
6,816
Location
Sachse, TX
Format
35mm

Why grain is higher? The film is a negative film to begin with and processing it into slides I would think compromise the quality more.
 

loccdor

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 12, 2024
Messages
1,503
Location
USA
Format
Multi Format
Must have to do with the speed drop to ISO 12-16.
 

Yezishu

Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2024
Messages
125
Location
Hong Kong
Format
35mm
Chan Tran said:
Why grain is higher? The film is a negative film to begin with and processing it into slides I would think compromise the quality more.
Click to expand...

When developing negatives, the largest grains develop first and are left, whereas in slides, the largest grains are developed first and bleached away. So slides generally has finer grain.

Cross processing presents many issues, such as color shifts, that is why low iso and C41 is used here as a kind of compensation. In my search results, directly using E6 on this flim typically results in a severe blue tint.
 

Chan Tran

Subscriber
Joined
May 10, 2006
Messages
6,816
Location
Sachse, TX
Format
35mm

I have never done it but I can't think that you can get finer grain by cross processing the film.
 

Ivo Stunga

Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
1,196
Location
Latvia
Format
35mm
Chan Tran said:
I have never done it but I can't think that you can get finer grain by cross processing the film.
Click to expand...

Well, do some research instead of plain thinking then.
Same applies to BW material: when reversed to slides, grain is a lot smaller. Delta 3200 processed as a slide looks like a 400 negative film grain-wise. Just the nature of the processing involving reversal.
 

Meinrad

Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2024
Messages
56
Location
Lac de Constance
Format
Multi Format
new roll, shot at 100ASA, HC 1:19 for 13´
 

Attachments

  • Ph02.jpg
    402.4 KB · Views: 96
  • Ph03.jpg
    309 KB · Views: 96
  • Ph04.jpg
    387.1 KB · Views: 87
  • Ph05.jpg
    175.4 KB · Views: 94

loccdor

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 12, 2024
Messages
1,503
Location
USA
Format
Multi Format
@Meinrad Very nice! Your method works well on images with a lot of sky and water.
 

Meinrad

Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2024
Messages
56
Location
Lac de Constance
Format
Multi Format
Thank you for the flowers, yes the yellows are not the strongest... Maybe i try a KR6 filter, hope it does not get too muddy...
 

Meinrad

Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2024
Messages
56
Location
Lac de Constance
Format
Multi Format
and for korax: "What's mostly puzzling me is the magenta band along the left edge of the image; is this due to the flashing exposure?"

Now i know the reason, i spool the films under my blanket in my bed due to the absence of a dark room, and during daylight i need to add one blanket more to have no light falling in... Don't ask me how i found out, i have learned it the hard way on a sunny day with a very stubborn roll of film
 
OP
OP

chromemax

Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2009
Messages
44
Location
Monza e dell
Format
Multi Format
It seems that the new Phoenix II is not suitable for the reversal process. I want to make more attempts but I'm not very optimistic...

 

Meinrad

Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2024
Messages
56
Location
Lac de Constance
Format
Multi Format
Hello Chromemax,
thanks for sharing! Hmm you are right, i would have also expected more. Could you please tell us your settings, same as yours for Phoenix I?
And how did you get rid of the violet base?
 

BHuij

Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
854
Location
Utah
Format
Multi Format
That's rather disappointing. I just got some of it (as well as a couple of rolls of the original to play with reversal because of this thread). Ah well. Can't complain too much if a new color film doesn't conform well to my oddball off-label use case
 

Raghu Kuvempunagar

Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2016
Messages
2,733
Location
India
Format
Multi Format
OP
OP

chromemax

Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2009
Messages
44
Location
Monza e dell
Format
Multi Format
Meinrad said:
Hello Chromemax,
thanks for sharing! Hmm you are right, i would have also expected more. Could you please tell us your settings, same as yours for Phoenix I?
And how did you get rid of the violet base?
Click to expand...

Hello Meinrad, the process was the same of Phoenix II but with few modifications; I thought to increase the color development (regular C-41 CD) to 5' because the lower contrast of Phoenix-II and, having at hand the C41 chemistry, I used the c-41 bleach for 5' and c-41 fixer for 4'.
I don't think that the C-41 bleach instead of ferrycianide is the cause of the blu/cyan hue, I think that it is because of the changes in the emulsion and in layer arrangment. But I want to do more tests before I throw in the towel
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…