Should I get a really old roll of film?

[Donald Qualls]

My method for expired Tri-X has been to keep a couple of bottles of water in the film fridge, which keeps them right about 55deg F. I use either Rodinal or HC-110 for expired film so I just mix that 55deg water with the developer concentrate and if it raises the temperature a degree or two I don't lose sleep. I add three drops of 2% benzo (drops are really technical, huh?) to a two-reel tank and I just about double the developing time. Actually just a little more. That has worked well for me but I've never gotten the fog to clear completely as it does for the author of that article. I guess I just haven't found the perfect recipe yet.

Seems to me he went another 5F cooler -- but about the same benzotriazole; he used more drops, but his was 1%. Several of his films weren't completely fog free, they were just "usable" as opposed to "fogged beyond all recall."

 

[Pentode]

Seems to me he went another 5F cooler -- but about the same benzotriazole; he used more drops, but his was 1%. Several of his films weren't completely fog free, they were just "usable" as opposed to "fogged beyond all recall."

The amount of benzo I'm using is directly due to his article. "Usable" is about as good as I've gotten with the old Tri-X I've been using up but it was also stored as badly as possible (in an attic) for years. To be fair, I also haven't done a whole lot of experimenting to see if I could improve the results further. One thing I have found is that the fog is just about the same using either HC-110 or Rodinal. I think the temperature and benzo have a lot more effect than the choice of developer. Also, I went back and looked at my negatives after I posted yesterday and I suspect my development times might be a little on the long side. A reduction in time might, perhaps, also improve the fog.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Overdevelopment does nothing good for either fog or grain. If the fog is still high, up your benzo a little -- four drops instead of three, perhaps.

 

[Colin Corneau]

Why buy garbage?
Buy fresh film and enjoy life.

Exactly.

Have fun and experiment with fresh film so we still have some 5 or 10 years from now.

 

[Pentode]

Overdevelopment does nothing good for either fog or grain. If the fog is still high, up your benzo a little -- four drops instead of three, perhaps.

It's the other way around; My times are too long now. Reducing them should reduce fog as well if I'm not mistaken. Adding more benzo, a restrainer, would then just require more developing time.

Exactly. Have fun and experiment with fresh film so we still have some 5 or 10 years from now.

The two aren't mutually exclusive. One can buy expired film and still buy fresh film. I buy plenty of each and get great results from lots of expired film. Like you, I want to see the companies that make film prosper and I buy fresh film to help support that but I also don't want to see perfectly good expired film (and much of it is, in fact, perfectly good) get tossed in a landfill simply because of the idea that only fresh film can produce worthwhile images. There's plenty of room for both ideologies to coexist.

 

[Donald Qualls]

It's the other way around; My times are too long now. Reducing them should reduce fog as well if I'm not mistaken. Adding more benzo, a restrainer, would then just require more developing time.

You can probably do either. Upping the BZT is equivalent (more or less) to shortening your development time. Shortening doesn't cost as much in speed, so try that first.

 

[Pentode]

You can probably do either. Upping the BZT is equivalent (more or less) to shortening your development time. Shortening doesn't cost as much in speed, so try that first.

I think we were actually saying more or less the same thing from two different directions. I misinterpreted your first post - sorry.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I think we were actually saying more or less the same thing from two different directions. I misinterpreted your first post - sorry.

I thought as much. No problem. Even if we disagree, still no problem -- we can either just disagree, or find a way to test the issue.

 

[Sirius Glass]

There is a good chance that the film may not be useful, then you have to back to your wife and request additional funds. Life is short, just buy fresh film, get off the computer and take some photographs.

 

[Huss]

Film is like cheese, wine and prosciutto.

 

[Bill Burk]

What is it about cold? To minimize the activity of hydroquinone relative to metol? Just to keep the time long enough to time accurately while still getting the film out before fog grows?

I could mix my own developer and develop by inspection (using infrared goggles). I kind of like the idea of doing everything at 68-degrees F. But to help others I might do the ice if times are too short to time.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Depending on the developers used, the HQ vs. metol may be the major factor. Hydroquinone is reported to lose activity rather abruptly as temperature drops past about 60F, hence warnings I've seen against letting temperature get down that far (despite compensating time at the usual 4% per degree F). One comparison for that would be D-23 vs. D-76 -- or a D-76 mix with the hydroquinone left out (and times adjusted for the much lower activity), roughly like D-23 with borax added.

 

[ic-racer]

Can you show us the film curve?

 

[Bill Burk]

Can you show us the film curve?

This is what I got from my first roll (I bought one 20-exp roll before I bought the bulk roll)

 

[Kino]

Some elevated fog, not terrible. Process gamma is 0.88?
Gonna try D76 1:1? I am sure you know 0.65 gamma is "normal", but do you like the extra contrast?
It does have a grey base; right?


Edit: Oh I see; .88 density range. Looks like a pretty steep curve and I see no evidence of a toe or a shoulder. What did you rate it at? If you rated it at 250, it looks like it has decreased in speed quite a bit.

Provided I am reading your plot correctly...

 

[ic-racer]

I think he has the H&D curve on its side. Also, just a guess, that most of the steps are clear, due to the slow speed, so only the toe shows. I was actually interested in the whole tonal range. Maybe blast it a few times with multiple pops of the strobe to fill out the curve. That is what I have done with the E.I. 6 film I had a few years ago.

 

[Bormental]

Why buy garbage?
Buy fresh film and enjoy life.

+1

 

[Bormental]

Film is like cheese, wine and prosciutto.

Mmm... I think it's more like sushi.

 

[Bill Burk]

It’s sideways, the toe is lost in fog (about 0.4 fog). But it’s a nice straight line as far as I got, the fully exposed piece of leader reached 1.42 density that makes me think the straight line continues. I will see what happens when I hit a test from the bulk roll full blast.

 

[Bill Burk]

Well the film is here, still sealed in the can, will be testing it shortly.

 

[ozphoto]

I shot some 40 year old VR1000 film (storage unknown) last year and wasn't expecting anything decent. That being said, although it had some hideous fog and huge colour shifts, I managed to get a few shots that worked - note though I had to do some colour correction digitally because it was so huge.

I also shot the scenes on fresh film, just in case, but I prefer the *ratty* versions much better.

I've decided to shoot what I want and throw caution to the wind (while backing up on good film too) - if I'd simply tossed this roll without shooting, I wouldn't have taken a trip down memory lane, gobsmacked people with golf ball grain (yeah - this was *the* fast film of the day!!) or enjoyed the photoshoot in Thailand as much as I did.

 

[Nokton48]

I just got five 4x5 Tri-X filmpacks some dated 1983, some dated 1976!

And a 4x5 filmpack of SuperXX dated 1953.

This is going to be fun. I love using filmpacks. Shanghai should reintroduce them with 400 GP3

 

[Donald Qualls]

I love using filmpacks. Shanghai should reintroduce them with 400 GP3

Film packs are great. Needing special equipment to process the film isn't so much. Pack film is full glass plate size (i.e. actually four inches by five inches in 4x5), instead of undersize by the thickness of a film sheath. It won't fit in our standard 4x5 tanks, scanner carriers, etc. No to mention needing a film pack adapter (which, though generally cheap, are pretty much gone from eBay by now).

 

[Nokton48]

I have three FR 4x5 film tanks that need to be dusted off. The corners always chip off but I have rebuilt some of mine. And two 4x5 pack film holders. There are zillions on Ebay.

I remember reading that Kodak Super-XX can be many decades over expiration, still works great. You can burn through a lot of dichroic fog and the negs still print in an exquisite manner.

Maybe not so the Tri-X, we will see. I have fond memories of shooting old expired Tri-X filmpacks twenty five years ago and it was all good at the time. Fred Picker of Zone VI fame liked Tri-X filmpacks. There is a curl along one edge that causes that outer strip to be out of focus. Fred marked his groundglass

 

[Nokton48]

Darkroom Print 7 by Nokton48, on Flickr

Devils Bathtub, Hocking Hills State Park, central Ohio. Very expired 4x5 Tri-X filmpack