Sharpest 120 Folder?

[Axelwik]

Nope. I serviced this camera when I got it, including disassembly and cleaning of the lens elements, and this Skopar is a 4 element tessar type design and it cannot be assembled incorrectly: each piece of glass is mounted in its own ring and there's no way to "flip" one of the elements. Voigtlander undoubtedly made many versions of the Skopar, and on this particular camera, its a very mediocre lens. At anything less than f8 it's positively unusable.

Begs the question: If it's anything like my Tessar equipped Zeiss Ikon folders it focuses via movement of only the front elements. When you put it back together, did you check focus using a ground glass at the film plane?

 

[JPD]

Nope. I serviced this camera when I got it, including disassembly and cleaning of the lens elements, and this Skopar is a 4 element tessar type design and it cannot be assembled incorrectly: each piece of glass is mounted in its own ring and there's no way to "flip" one of the elements. Voigtlander undoubtedly made many versions of the Skopar, and on this particular camera, its a very mediocre lens. At anything less than f8 it's positively unusable.

Begs the question: If it's anything like my Tessar equipped Zeiss Ikon folders it focuses via movement of only the front elements. When you put it back together, did you check focus using a ground glass at the film plane?

That's the method I start with, but since the film doesn't sit perfectly flat I use a test roll to fine adjust the focus at infinity. Here's an example. I printed out a scale with numbers. The front element was focused at infinity on a ground glass. I made a scratch on the front cell ring so it pointed at number 3 on the scale. Then I took eight test photos with the scratch pointing at 1 to 8. Let's say that negative #5 was the sharpest, then I turn the front cell so the scratch points at #5 on the scale, remove the scale and put the focus ring back.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51184059283_611c2f99ef_w.jpg

 

[Neil Grant]

Agfa Record users - hand held photography. What is the longest exposure time you can use and still get sharp images?

 

[nosmok]

I am more and more convinced as I age that a VF, scale focus, and a depth of field table are the way to go. Rangefinders are just another adjustment to go awry. I'll still use them if they're there but I don't think they are worth the premium they cost on MF cameras any more.

 

[Besk]

Agfa Record users - hand held photography. What is the longest exposure time you can use and still get sharp images?

I try to use a tripod or other steadying device at all times with my Record. But 1/60 would the the slowest speed handheld is my slowest.

 

[Dustin McAmera]

Twenty years ago, I searched for lenses that created visible abnormalities for use in portraiture. I found that even primitive lenses like triplets and rapid rectilinears rendered surprisingly modern images.

I wouldn't call a triplet primitive. It was a giant leap forward. People think of them as a poor thing beause the Tessar exists, but the triplet came first and has most of the same advantages. It controls chromatic error well, doesn't have too many surfaces to reduce contrast, so it works ok uncoated, and it can do front-element focusing, which makes the camera cheaper. It's not surprising they were used for ages. But not all triplets are equal.

 

[retina_restoration]

Begs the question: If it's anything like my Tessar equipped Zeiss Ikon folders it focuses via movement of only the front elements. When you put it back together, did you check focus using a ground glass at the film plane?

Obviously, yes.

 

[Dustin McAmera]

I try to use a tripod or other steadying device at all times with my Record. But 1/60 would the the slowest speed handheld is my slowest.

To me, using a tripod is throwing away the main reason to use a folder: it goes in your coat pocket. I sometimes jam the camera against a post in the street, or hold it down on a bench or fence, if I need to use a slow speed.

I'm bitter about tripods lately. I went to get out my middle-sized tripod, and it's not here. Nowhere in the house, and I've created quite a mess looking. I'm afraid I may have put it down out on the hills, to have a drink or something, and then just walked away from it. The last time I remember using it, with certainty, was months ago, so it's too late to go looking for it.

 

[Rolleiflexible]

The shot of the boy in the bus is amazing, it has so much atmosphere. And, given the inaccuracy and parallax error of the viewfinder, the framing alone is no small feat.

IIRC, that was a one-second exposure (handheld) -- the inside of the bus was quite dim. Credit to the camera: I was impressed by how little flare came from shooting into the bright light at the center of the frame. Ilford gave Melanie an award for that photograph when they reintroduced postcard paper, and she entered a copy on the new postcard stock.

 

[Rolleiflexible]

I wouldn't call a triplet primitive. It was a giant leap forward.

Fair enough. One of my favorite cameras is a restored Rolleicord II with a Triotar lens. It is the only lens in the Rollei TLR family where I *think* I can see a difference in how it renders as compared to the Tessar and Planar lenses. But even that might be more aspirational than empirical.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Triotar lens. It is the only lens in the Rollei TLR family where I *think* I can see a difference in how it renders as compared to the Tessar and Planar

My experience is that there's only a difference between a triplet, Tessar type, Helia type 5-element, and more modern lenses when they're fairly wide open. Most if not all of the advancements in lenses (brought about by more choices of glass with better relations between dispersion and refractive index) were in correcting aberrations that are more apparent at wide apertures.

That is to say, almost any triplet at f/11 is better than most Tessar types at f/4.5. Of course, if you don't have fast film or can't use a tripod for some reason, that's a difference that may make a difference in your actual work.

Beyond that, one of the big advantages of a large frame (6x6, 6x7, or 6x9) is that fast film still doesn't look grainy in a reasonable print size (and that goes double for tabular grain films with the newest chemistry -- formate doping alone gained about one stop at the same grain size). Combine all that -- modern T-Max 400, for instance -- and you've got film that might, just possibly, show the difference between the best lenses on folders and the run of the mill. Of course, if you're not getting nose prints on a 16x20, the difference may still not be visible if you had an opportunity to stop down a bit.

 

[Helge]

That's pretty simple, put a ruler on the frame and see if it lies flat. As I understand it, there is the frame and a pressure plate pressing the film onto the frame. For a curved film plane frame and pressure plate are curved. This is not the case, the pressure plate is perfectly flat.

An example of an extremely curved film plane https://www.oddcameras.com/noblex_135.htm, but simple plastic cameras with meniskus lenses often also have one https://www.plastikcam.com/mini_style_focus_free.htm, there are more on the site.

If the film curves after leaving the film plane, that's not a curved film plane...

We might be talking about two different things. It's not a curved film plane like the Agfa Click or the Widelux.
I'm talking about a pillow shaped plane, where the natural curvature and springiness of the film is allowed to work in the film gate. with the pressure plate working at the edges and as a backstop in the midsection of the film.
There is no tension to speak of, or at least no guaranteed tension on the film, as there are on cameras with a more complex film path.
That has the advantage of no kinks on the film, but of course also makes it harder to hold the film traditionally flat.

If the designer of the camera knows this, they can of course incorporate this in the optical design of the lens.

What's important is that the film is not allowed to buckle randomly when transported. Hence why people have found it helpful to not violently let the bellows snap into place, and to only advance the film just before the photo is taken.

 

[Axelwik]

Obviously, yes.

If this were a forum consisting of nothing but professional camera repair technicians, then we could probably assume that it was done. But this is a forum open to most anyone who has an interest in cameras - what one person calls "service" might simply mean cleaning the lens. Talk is cheap.

Anyway - looks like you have a bad sample. I'm sure the vast majority are fine.

 

[Axelwik]

Agfa Record users - hand held photography. What is the longest exposure time you can use and still get sharp images?

Everyone gets lucky once in a while.

 

[Alex Varas]

If this were a forum consisting of nothing but professional camera repair technicians, then we could probably assume that it was done. But this is a forum open to most anyone who has an interest in cameras - what one person calls "service" might simply mean cleaning the lens. Talk is cheap.

Anyway - looks like you have a bad sample. I'm sure the vast majority are fine.

I concur with @retina_restoration , some samples are better than others.

I’m a professional camera repair technician.

 

[Besk]

To me, using a tripod is throwing away the main reason to use a folder: it goes in your coat pocket. I sometimes jam the camera against a post in the street, or hold it down on a bench or fence, if I need to use a slow speed.

I'm bitter about tripods lately. I went to get out my middle-sized tripod, and it's not here. Nowhere in the house, and I've created quite a mess looking. I'm afraid I may have put it down out on the hills, to have a drink or something, and then just walked away from it. The last time I remember using it, with certainty, was months ago, so it's too late to go looking for it.

I use my Record III exclusively as film camera for travel in lieu of a 4x5.

Yes, tripods are a pain but I use them whenever I can - whatever I can find (post, fence, bench etc) to steady the camera. Have a Sirui that weighs slightly less that 2 lbs - flimsy, short but it is better than nothing.

 

[retina_restoration]

If this were a forum consisting of nothing but professional camera repair technicians, then we could probably assume that it was done. But this is a forum open to most anyone who has an interest in cameras - what one person calls "service" might simply mean cleaning the lens. Talk is cheap.

Anyway - looks like you have a bad sample. I'm sure the vast majority are fine.

I am a camera repair technician. I picked up where Chris Sherlock left off in April of 2022. Thanks for asking.

 

[MTGseattle]

I love my Perkeo II. After i got it i sold my Plaubel, It's such a perfect tiny 6x6 that travels well alongside a Leica. The Color Skopar lens is a gem. Photo @ minimum focus off the test roll & the Pll alongside the Leica.
View attachment 347608 View attachment 347609

NIce!

 

[Axelwik]

I am a camera repair technician. I picked up where Chris Sherlock left off in April of 2022. Thanks for asking.

Excellent; then you should know that there's some variation, as you pointed out, but I still say say that variation between users is far more consequential than variation in lenses.

 

[Dan Daniel]

Maybe this was discussed back on page 6 or so, but I'll point out that along with sample variation and manufacturing tolerances, cameras can have some interesting things done to them over the years. Just worked on a Yashica-Mat where the front group was clearly marked 'Yashinon' and the rear 'group' was a single element, most likely from a Yashikor. This would be Yashica's 'Tessar-type' Yashinon and Yashica's triplet Yashikor. The camera owner had gotten acceptable images with this set up, but I could see on a ground glass that it was not giving what a Yashinon should.

Somewhere I read a comment to the effect that Schneider spent a lot of effort to send Rollei carefully matched sets of Xenar lenses for use in Rolleiflexes just after WWII. Zeiss was knocked out of production and Schneider probably saw an opening to have their lenses used on Rolleiflexes and wanted to send them the best. I can say that a couple of the best Tessar-type lenses I have seen were these Xenars, 1948-49, K4B with the red triangle mark for coating.

I have used a couple of Skopars in Baby Bessa 6x4.5s that were very good. I've seen comments over the years complaining about the Skopars, also, consistently enough to not doubt that there are some clunkers out here, for whatever reasons. I've had a Schneider Xenotar 80mm f/2.8 that was an amazing lens, and another Xenotar 80mm f/2.8 made at the same time that was meh. So many factors involved. For me, when I hear complaints or disappointments about a lens that I have also heard good comments about, it means to check each sample.

 

[Donald Qualls]

check each sample.

Especially decades after production with an uncertain service and handling history, this is the only rule we can depend on.

I will say this, though -- one of the best lenses I have is the 10.5 cm f/4.5 Skopar-Anastigmat on my Voigtlander Rollfilmkamera (1927 ancestor of the Bessa 1). About as simple as a 6x9 folder gets, pull-out lens board, unit focusing by scale and not even a pressure plate -- but boy does it produce some excellent images.

 

[retina_restoration]

Maybe this was discussed back on page 6 or so, but I'll point out that along with sample variation and manufacturing tolerances, cameras can have some interesting things done to them over the years. Just worked on a Yashica-Mat where the front group was clearly marked 'Yashinon' and the rear 'group' was a single element, most likely from a Yashikor. This would be Yashica's 'Tessar-type' Yashinon and Yashica's triplet Yashikor. The camera owner had gotten acceptable images with this set up, but I could see on a ground glass that it was not giving what a Yashinon should.

Likewise, I have observed a few Retina IIc/IIIc types that have a Schneider Xenon in the front and a Rodenstock rear group, or vice versa. The front groups are keyed to each manufacturer, but there's nothing to stop someone putting the wrong rear group on a shutter. I guess folks use whatever they can lay their hands on when the need arises.

 

[Donald Qualls]

folks use whatever they can lay their hands on when the need arises.

Especially if a) they're ignorant of the possible consequences, or b) they're trying to make a fast buck and don't care about the end result.

 

[GregY]

Latest darkroom print from the Perkeo ll/ TMY2/Yellow filter. The Color Skopar lens is a gem! I just printed a full 11x14" on Ilford Coldtone FB and Fomatone MG 131 FB. The tonality is beautiful and the detail & sharpness is very nice. (f5.6 @ 100). I'm looking forward to using some TMax 100 and my remaining rolls of Agfapan 25 in this camera. It is so compact I'll be happy to take on Europe trips along with my M4......a great combo for those who like to travel very light & still come home with a big negative to print from.

 

[Prest_400]

This thread has been very interesting to read through. I am looking into Folders to compliment my GW690 on a long trip to Asia. More frames/roll, lighter and "B-roll", BW camera that I can take when leaving the GW690 behind on base. A fun anecdote is that I talked to another photographer that went on a roadtrip with a P67 that crapped out on the first stop, though he had a Perkeo with him that he chose not to use and switched to digital. Gearheadism, but I disagree with that approach!

The Fuji 6x9 ironically has served me quite well and has become the main photography focused camera of my staple. I have becoming used to high performing lens and I always preferred to buy more film and cover costs rather than hunt an additional camera. Fuji 645 came to mind but these are a bit out the league, and not as fun as the classics.
I do have a Nettar that I got at a Swap, and happily can be a sunny f16 camera. An interesting factor is that as one stops down, lenses become more uniform in performance due to diffraction.

For the purpose of temporarily compliment I know someone who might lend me a Super Isolette, and of course, in the auction sites one sooner than later starts to look into the Super Ikontas and exotic machines together with knowing the usual caveats of vintage cameras. I do feel I should have gotten a Perkeo with Color skopar earlier for such purpose.
-> For an expedition indeed the interest is to have the best possible quality, but for fun I would say the Nettars and equivalents are fantastic. Holgas aren't that well performing nor cheap anymore!