Rotary processing for roll film - streaking or uneven development more likely?

[Sirius Glass]

So you fill the tank until it starts overflowing, put the lid on and start with rotation?

No I fill it almost all the way; never to overflowing.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

So you fill the tank until it starts overflowing, put the lid on and start with rotation?

My Jobo CPP-3 has the lift arm system so I fill through that, not to overflowing though.

 

[Sirius Glass]

My Jobo CPP-3 has the lift arm system so I fill through that, not to overflowing though.

I had a CPE without the lift arm and now a CPP2 with a lift arm. The lift arm makes a big difference for filling. The lift handle was broken off when I bought it, so I just lift the tank even when it is hot.

 

[mshchem]

I started rotary processing 120 film in 1987. In 2000 I got a Jobo and have been using that same Jobo ever since. Thousands of rolls of film through it and it still looks and runs like new.

Even though I only do B&W, temperature control is a key requirement. The temperature in my darkroom changes dramatically depending on the season.

I specifically wanted the CPP2 because I need to process many 120 at once, and the CPP2 allows one to process 10 rolls at a time in the tank configuration shown.

I use the plastic reels and have never had any issue with improper development at the edges or any other development issue. I have never had streaking and don't know how that would happen as the developer is constantly swirling around at the recommended settings.

I think it is important to use a developer that is designed for rotary processing. I have been using Tmax developer since 1987. I hope they still keep making it.

I fill the Jobo with 24C water and I fill all the bottles with 24C water also. I use the 24C water in the bottles to mix the chemistry. All liquid, one-shot.

That way the unit is ready almost immediately. By the time I load the tank with film, the developer is already at correct working temperature.

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Very similar to my workflow, I usually have a lot of film to process when my friends drop by. I love my processors. I have the luxury of space

 

[mshchem]

As you can see I'm not opposed to rotary processing.

 

[mshchem]

Best things are scrounged. I have 3 of these 1 for each of my big sinks. Makes things easier.

 

[pentaxuser]

View attachment 354503

As you can see I'm not opposed to rotary processing.

Are you sure that is not your shop we are looking at . It looks pretty extensive

pentaxuser

 

[koraks]

As you can see

Oh, so that's where all the Jobo tanks have gone!

 

[mshchem]

Oh, so that's where all the Jobo tanks have gone!

This is a partial display. Everything is used but not every week or month or year.

 

[FotoD]

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As you can see I'm not opposed to rotary processing.

Me neither. I have Jobo Expert and 2500 tanks, a Jobo ATL and Ilford motor bases. Rotary development works great with sheet film.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Are you sure that is not your shop we are looking at . It looks pretty extensive

I'm feeling left out as I only own four Jobo Expert Drums...

 

[JWMster]

I'm left out, too but now by choice. Sold ALL my Jobo happily. Very Happily. Oh yeah. Absolute and complete joy to be freed from the Jobo plantation.

Jobo was a great idea and the only game in town for a very long time, and it's joy that it was developed, but in today's world it is way over priced for what you get and unnecessary as rotary processing has really, really gone mainstream and the options for more and better are now innumerable and getting more by the day. Call it a side effect of 3D printing turning loose a lot of minds to look at rotary processing with a fresh set of eyes, a new generation, etc. and the new alternatives are just.... better. Perhaps if I'd had the bigger cousin rather than the CPE2+ and been able to use the Expert Drums I might have stayed with it. But the drums and reels are just very over priced for no particular reason other than lack of competition. Switched to Paterson and Paterson compatible equipment... and the economics just get better. Way better, and the results at least as good.

But without Jobo, there's be no Rotary Processing Manual or Jobo Journal articles, and the world would be sadder for it. But no, streaking is NOT a Jobo side effect but sadly..... user error of some sort. Been there, done that. The trick is to figure out the issue and eliminate it. Get dependable, repeatable results first and then if you want to do other stuff like minimizing the chems, then go there.

 

[Carnie Bob]

Folks,

Over the past almost 40 years of my photography, I don't think I've ever done rotary processing of roll film. I've done the normal inversion tank approach for everything that I can recall and when I did have a Jobo, it was used for sheet film (4x5, and larger using Expert drums). I never used it for roll film processing. Above 8x10 film size, I mostly processed in trays.

I'm back to shooting film, but only 120, and I've been doing it through the traditional Jobo 1500 series tanks and using inversion processing. That works well, but I'd prefer to automate it some so I can put my attention on getting a new batch of chems ready or for other tasks in the darkroom because I realy have to be more efficient with my time.

As I see it, I have 3 main choices, with some having options within:

1. Jobo CPE or Filmomat Light
2. Jobo Silverbase or similar from China
3. Heiland TAS

Two of the main options are rotary. Some options are cheaper than the third option so that is a factor, but frankly, if the Heiland is the best option, then I'll go that route.

The CPE or Filmomat Light allow a water tempering bath which could be very handy for color processing, but I doubt it is really all that necessary for B&W processing. I could just use them without the water, though, but they are a bit more bulky because of that capability.

Next on the list is the Silverbase and all of the Chinese rotary roller units out there. The sad thing is that the Jobo Silverbase is about the sme price as the Filmomat Light, so there's something attractive about just buying that one instead of what appears to be grossly inflated prices for the modern Jobo product. The Chinese products are a lot less expensive, but they are probably nowhere near as robust, so I'm not as incliined to go that route.

I care about the quality of the processing (in this respect, I mean eveneess, not absolute density conrol aspects, ala the Zone System, because I'm scanning after this step, so I don't need to be too precise with the DR of the negatives), and one thing I have seen on occasion with Jobo rotary processing is bromide drag. That never happened with the Expert drums, but I have seen it when there is laminar flow in a drum from the regular rotation. In roll film, I would be concerned more about surge marks from the spools and if the rotary motion back and fourth causes this to be in the same location al the time, it will cause density artifacts.

What I'm interested in is whether I really am better off going the Heiland TAS route for this processing and foregoing the rotary approach because I will get consistentily superior results from keeping an inversion approach for my processing. I see comments/question on here from people who have had problems with roll film in the Jobo but I feel that there isn't enough data to have a clear understanind whether this is an edge case or if it may be more common, especially when looking carefully at the negative with respect to tingls like development uneveness.

I'm looking for some advice/recommendations/experiences for people who have done rotary processing with 120 fim and how that experience compares to inversion, etc.

Many thanks,

---Michael

Personally Hand Inversion and twist with stainless steel tanks is a very good method... I have used Jobo system now for a long time, The key for me at least even with Jobo tanks is to do the first 15 - 20 seconds of development by hand with a good twist and invert method, this gets the chemicals immediately to the film and has stopped all streaking problems, specifically in grey background or neutral areas. After I have hand agitated I put the tanks on the jobo unit to finish off the process.

 

[FotoD]

But no, streaking is NOT a Jobo side effect but sadly..... user error of some sort.

Sorry, but that's not the whole story.

But I agree it's not a Jobo effect, it's just physics. Rotation is sometimes not random enough. Bob's trick takes care of that. And I believe Matt does something similar.

 

[ic-racer]

I have not seen any new processors that will do 8x10 or larger. Maybe I'm missing something.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Personally Hand Inversion and twist with stainless steel tanks is a very good method... I have used Jobo system now for a long time, The key for me at least even with Jobo tanks is to do the first 15 - 20 seconds of development by hand with a good twist and invert method, this gets the chemicals immediately to the film and has stopped all streaking problems, specifically in grey background or neutral areas. After I have hand agitated I put the tanks on the jobo unit to finish off the process.

Those methods work well and I used them in the past. However they are not as easy to use when one needs the temperature control for color processing. Once I started using the Jobo processor for color work, I realized that I could also do the black & white processing in the Jobo processor. Therefore there was no need for me to continue with the stainless steel tanks. I still have the stainless steel tanks and reels that I could use if necessary, but for now they just take up room while they wait patiently.

 

[Steven Lee]

@Sirius Glass Speaking of temperature control, the first 20 seconds of manual inversions won't make any difference. In fact, you can agitate C41 holding the tank in the air and be perfectly within 99.5-100.5F range for the entire duration of development. What @Carnie Bob is suggesting is certainly interesting.

Bob, quick question: when you use your manual-followed-by-rotation method, how much chemistry do you put into your tank and what size is your tank? Thanks.

 

[JWMster]

FotoD: Yes and that is EXACTLY what I do. Nine hand inversions with each new chem bath or rinse bath (this takes approximately 15 seconds or so), then I put the tank on the rotary processor for the rest of the time. The rotary processor is a tool, not a cure all. So in this I completely agree.

B's processor also does what my CPE2+ did not do: 3 speeds with reversing - one of which adds a degree of random action... and with the wobbly wheels assures more thorough irregular sloshing. Do I miss the lift arm simplicity? Yes - it was easy; but also, No because with the tank off the rotary machine to fill it by hand, it's in the perfect place to facilitate hand inversions. Until these discussions, I hadn't seen any mention of this approach; and will suggest I simply stumbled on it as a combo of hand and rotary processor.... 'cause it was just there and all using B's processor and Paterson tanks. Kind of more "Duh-serendipity" moment than the outcome of planned experiments. And the thought in doing it was two-fold: 1) I'm too lazy for a complete hand inverted process - initial is fine, but ten minutes give or take? Not gonna happen; and then 2) I was too insecure to be confident a completely hand-managed, Jobo-free rotary process like B's processor was going to work WITHOUT thorough manual inversions. So I started doing this... but I guess the truth is that I gravitated to giving this a whirl after the first 2 tanks actually DID have some defects.

Went and re-watched youtubes posted by Dave Rollans on working with the B's processor ( Dave Rollans Youtube B's Processor review ), added the hand inversions and it worked as a combo. The perfect combo.... and that's why I am enthusiastic about rotary and Bournet's processor in particular.

IC-Racer: Yes, B's processor has 4X5 and 5X7 reels but no 8X10's.

 

[MattKing]

This is intriguing.
I sort of do the opposite. I start the development step with 30 seconds of rotating and reversing continuous agitation, and then use hand agitation thereafter - 5 seconds every 30 seconds.
All the rest of the steps use rotating and reversing continuous agitation.
I leave colour film to the labs.

 

[JWMster]

Agreed, and thank you for your notes on your proces. FWIW, I do feel I need to keep a watchful eye on the process - and with color the steps are all pretty short so I'm usually at the sink washing something and within 3 feet. With my rig, some runs need some intervention due to unresolved wonkiness deriving from use of a Paterson tank designed for manual inversion rather than rotary. The tank's taper can result in a degree of wandering from the track. But when it happens, I step in, grab the tank for an adjustment, add a couple of hand inversions and then put it back on the rotary. It happens less than it did initially, but still... it's on my do-list to de-wonk.

More generlaly, my problem is with my photographer and whether the work is worth the squeeze rather than with the process. But one step fixed begats another.

As to using a lab for color ....I've been thinking of that to resolve the waiting period problem where I tend to save all my color until I have enough to use an entire E6 or C41 kit inside of a couple of days. Subjects accustomed to a 2-second interval between iPhone snap and viewing have given up on me.

Needless to say, this is far from a best practice, and the amount of money saved by home processing probably might not justify the practice. Let me say that "management has this habit under review". But the results are absolutely NOT the problem. Are they as good and consistent as a 1st class lab... like what I hear about Richard's in LA? Probably not, but they suit me nonetheless. With the B&W developer I'm using.... mix-for-1-use-and-dump has become my practice with D23 and now especially with PC512 Borax (relistan's formulation).

 

[Sirius Glass]

Agreed, and thank you for your notes on your proces. FWIW, I do feel I need to keep a watchful eye on the process - and with color the steps are all pretty short so I'm usually at the sink washing something and within 3 feet. With my rig, some runs need some intervention due to unresolved wonkiness deriving from use of a Paterson tank designed for manual inversion rather than rotary. The tank's taper can result in a degree of wandering from the track. But when it happens, I step in, grab the tank for an adjustment, add a couple of hand inversions and then put it back on the rotary. It happens less than it did initially, but still... it's on my do-list to de-wonk.

More generlaly, my problem is with my photographer and whether the work is worth the squeeze rather than with the process. But one step fixed begats another.

As to using a lab for color ....I've been thinking of that to resolve the waiting period problem where I tend to save all my color until I have enough to use an entire E6 or C41 kit inside of a couple of days. Subjects accustomed to a 2-second interval between iPhone snap and viewing have given up on me.

Needless to say, this is far from a best practice, and the amount of money saved by home processing probably might not justify the practice. Let me say that "management has this habit under review". But the results are absolutely NOT the problem. Are they as good and consistent as a 1st class lab... like what I hear about Richard's in LA? Probably not, but they suit me nonetheless. With the B&W developer I'm using.... mix-for-1-use-and-dump has become my practice with D23 and now especially with PC512 Borax (relistan's formulation).

I agree that home color processing is not necessarily cost effective. I save between 12 and 16 rolls at a time for processing* but often I do not want to wait that long. Also once processed at home, making a print of every negative to review and evaluation is a longer, slow and more costly process. Therefore over the last few years, I have been taking the color film as I finish a roll or rolls to be processed and printed by a photo finisher instead of waiting until I have enough rolls.

* All developed in two or three days to avoid any color variation.

 

[koraks]

save all my color until I have enough to use an entire E6 or C41 kit inside of a couple of days.

For C41 this isn't really necessary. Most C41 chemistry keeps very well (months - years) if stored properly. This includes the developer.

I agree that home color processing is not necessarily cost effective.

It's not cost effective if you factor in labor. It's very cost effective if you consider it part of a hobby, so a $0 hourly rate for your efforts.

Also once processed at home, making a print of every negative to review and evaluation is a longer, slow and more costly process.

Slap 'em on the scanner and make a digital 'index print' and take it from there. Or just put the negs on a light table.

 

[Carnie Bob]

@Sirius Glass Speaking of temperature control, the first 20 seconds of manual inversions won't make any difference. In fact, you can agitate C41 holding the tank in the air and be perfectly within 99.5-100.5F range for the entire duration of development. What @Carnie Bob is suggesting is certainly interesting.

Bob, quick question: when you use your manual-followed-by-rotation method, how much chemistry do you put into your tank and what size is your tank? Thanks.

Steven- I use 1000ml pmk as Dev 1 in 8x10 drums 5 sheets at time, I split the development into 2 - 7 min timeframes, I capture the first dev as a final stain, I only agitate when going into the Dev 1 and am using distilled water. We use a presoak of regular water to remove the anti halation layer before dev, the dev is mixed immediately before process. I only process BW film on a Jobo, for C41 I use a sink line and solarize .

 

[JWMster]

View attachment 354504

Best things are scrounged. I have 3 of these 1 for each of my big sinks. Makes things easier.

I love this gear. Sure beats sticking a thermometer under the faucet like I do. One day... perhaps.

 

[JWMster]

BTW... just to follow up that I'm going to try something more akin to Matt's process (MattKing) and alter my work to use Hand Inversion/Agitation exclusively for the Developer step and the rotary for every other. Goal is to reduce grain using the 30-seconds of inversions (about 12 slow, smooth ones) and then 4 of the same every minute. There's another school that holds with 2 inversions every 30 seconds, but my plan's to give this a whirl and see if it makes a difference.