There is a worldwide crisis with the workforce. The people assembling the film inserts are not likely the engineers that designed the system. I'm glad to have a job right now as I suspect those assembling the cameras are.
Rolleiflex Hy6...One of the last medium format cameras in production
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I forgot about the tape.
Maybe the factory started setting the gap so large because they had problems with some backs not advancing the film smoothly or motors were burning out.
The film back does seem to be problematic with the Hy6 Mod2. The back is not quite the same as the original Hy6--I wonder if something in the redesign is at fault. (I do note that all the images posted are of the inserts and not the back.) The Hy6 was designed from the outset as a partnership between Sinar, Leaf and Franke & Heidecke as a hybrid digital/film camera. I haven't heard of any issue about focus many of the digital backs. Almost as if film was not considered very important in the design, kind of second-tier.
Very true and yet so easy to forget to factor that in. I don't think Nikon F6s and Leica MPs are even being made at the present time because of COVID.
I think the large gap is not intentional. I'm going to consider it something overlooked during assembly as a result of the worldwide state of affairs.
To be fair to these concerns, I agree that this thread (at least my share of it) certainly isn't doing anything to promote a camera system that is really a superb product. Aside from the focusing issues, I have been in a constant state of awe in terms of the design ingenuity, ergonomics, and feature set of this camera. There is no other medium format film camera I would rather own. There is certainly no evidence that there is a vast production problem, but there is evidence that two recent Hy6 buyers in this thread are experiencing similar problems. To me, the best way to prevent a problem like this from discouraging potential buyers is to fix it.
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I have a long lag-time between when I expose film and process it. So I can say that all the film coming to my light table is all exposed with the pressure plate set to 0.3 and everything is continuing to look great.
Since I now believe the AF offset is more sensitive than the focus screen (and this makes sense because all my lenses are WA or Normal) I'm going to do some tests to zero in the AF offset.
Presently it is set to -08. I would not be surprised if the perfect spot is at the Zero.
THEREFORE: I suspect Dave (and anyone else with the 6060 film back) should have the same success if he can get the pressure plate set to 0.3mm .
Since I now believe the AF offset is more sensitive than the focus screen (and this makes sense because all my lenses are WA or Normal) I'm going to do some tests to zero in the AF offset.
Presently it is set to -08. I would not be surprised if the perfect spot is at the Zero.
THEREFORE: I suspect Dave (and anyone else with the 6060 film back) should have the same success if he can get the pressure plate set to 0.3mm .
Well, at least that gives me something to try if the camera is not repaired at the factory. It would be icing on the cake if the screen didn't need adjusting after the pressure plate adjustment. My screen is not a perfect match to the film plane and the pressure plate adjustment would be in the right direction to bring them closer together, but it might overshoot. Whether that overshoot would be visible to me is another question. Also, I won't be using any lenses longer than 80mm.
Do you make your offset test exposures with the lens wide open? I noticed that Geoff's procedure doesn't specifically mention shooting wide open, but I don't see how it would be possible to accurately tell what point is in focus in the picture with the lens stopped down. My camera wouldn't focus correctly at any offset and was only able to even get into the ballpark at +33.
I have had various issues with the film inserts (and I think all your focusing problems are with the insert, not the back). Although mine have been with the pressure plate sett too tight and straining the motor as well as light leaks, the factory does need better quality control for the inserts. Also it seems that Kodak and Ilford backing paper are of different thicknesses--I have measured Ilford at 0.12mm, I will check Kodak when I process the roll I have in the camera right now. I would imagine the insert would have to accommodate that.
Some notes on the film insert.
1) The 6008i film channel is not adjustable. The feet that hold the pressure plate and create the channel are machined into the pressure plate. I measured the 120 film back (Magazin 6000) and got 0.50mm.
1 a) The 6008i is, in my opinion, the best designed film gate of any medium format camera. It holds the film perfectly flat and focuses perfectly. (This applies not only to my broken 6008i (RIP) but to the one I got from Pieter too.)
2) That the film channel distance is actually adjustable on the Hy6 6060 back is in itself an enigma. I can't recall any camera with an adjustable film channel gap. Anyone?
3) The 6060 insert channel adjustment is VERY CRITICAL to the function of the camera. It probably needs some kind of jig to set it correctly but I did it with feeler gauges. It took a few tries because, just tightening the screws can slightly change the gap. I used a 0.330 feeler gauge to set the gap and the resulting gap was 0.30.
4) I don't know who assembled my insert but the 4 corner gaps were as follows: 0.533mm, 0.610mm, 0.635mm and 0.700mm.
1) The 6008i film channel is not adjustable. The feet that hold the pressure plate and create the channel are machined into the pressure plate. I measured the 120 film back (Magazin 6000) and got 0.50mm.
1 a) The 6008i is, in my opinion, the best designed film gate of any medium format camera. It holds the film perfectly flat and focuses perfectly. (This applies not only to my broken 6008i (RIP) but to the one I got from Pieter too.)
2) That the film channel distance is actually adjustable on the Hy6 6060 back is in itself an enigma. I can't recall any camera with an adjustable film channel gap. Anyone?
3) The 6060 insert channel adjustment is VERY CRITICAL to the function of the camera. It probably needs some kind of jig to set it correctly but I did it with feeler gauges. It took a few tries because, just tightening the screws can slightly change the gap. I used a 0.330 feeler gauge to set the gap and the resulting gap was 0.30.
4) I don't know who assembled my insert but the 4 corner gaps were as follows: 0.533mm, 0.610mm, 0.635mm and 0.700mm.
Hi All,
I'm still reading through this thread, but wanted to post to say hello (I know a lot of you) and add a few things that I know. Firstly I'm really impressed with all the work and thinking some of you have done here. I've written the factory to ask about how they set the platen on the film inserts for 6060. Mosty if there is a problem with focus, certainly I and they will recommend contacting the factory in Germany. I hope to have some information about this film insert thing soon, or perhaps someone from factory will jump in an post themselves.
But I understand the joy of tinkering and I have to admit I've done some of these kinds of things myself - such as making my own magnifying lupe finders, fitting strange lenses, making my own behind the lens shutter adapter, front filter thread bezel for the FX-N, and my custom tilt shift lens adapter for the awesome 150mm APO Schneider PQ bellows lens. I do love the 'can do' approach that I see here, but I worry that changing platen spacing on the insert isn't the right solution. These are all hand assembled low production cameras and lenses. I am still amazed at how great the Hy6 cameras are ergonomically and the lenses are amazing. I am thankful for everyone's patience. The factory is still in operation, still producing new Hy6 Mod2's and 6060 film backs and lenses, and does take care of issues that come up.
The Autofocus circuit in the Hy6 is independent from the focusing screen calibration / manual focus by eye. In a new camera both have been calibrated and should match. Focusing to infinity is a 3rd calibration from the first two. You can change the infinity focus on a lens by changing the focusing ring position to the helical without affecting the calibration of the focus screen or AF. This would be my prefered way of approaching the problem when a camera system can't focus out to infinity. Before doing anything I'd really want to be sure it's off. There are a lot of parameters involved with testing - the AF offsets, the AF spot size, and possible user error. Just saying... I sometimes forget to set the AF to manual, or check the AF offset. And things can be in the lens and not the camera too, particularly if it had been serviced by someone in the past. Recently I had a 300mm APO lens that have come through my used section that focused to infinity on my Hy6 mod2 camera but didn't focus out to infinity on the customers 6008AF camera. I sent this lens to Mr. Feely at Key Camera and he was able to reposition the focus ring on the lens with a 6000 series body for about $150.
If you change your platen spacing, you will undoubtedly need to change also the focus screen placement and recalibrate the AF offsets for each lens. I'm still in doubt this is the right way to approach the focus problem, however the viewfinder frame focus screen doesn't need shims - There are 4 screw holes on the perimeter of the viewfinder frame with little phillips screws underneath. The two screws bottom of screen are revealed when you lift the frame. Mark things carefully and make adjustments no bigger than 1/8th a turn. Much much easier to do with a digital back. The reason why I know this is the first AFi-ii 12 digital backs were shipped with improper sensor position and I calibrated my focus. Leaf later identified an issue with a key piece of their calibration equipment and resolved the issue. But without a digital back, I'd probably send the camera to the factory (DW-Photo.eu) and have it done properly.
Another piece of information that I've been told by the factory is that for the most part the Rollei 6000/Hy6 lenses are set such that the infinity mark is not true infinity but the hyper-focal for the widest aperture of that lens. Makes sense for most work except maybe shooting the milkyway,
Wow - this got to be a bit long - sorry!
I'm still reading through this thread, but wanted to post to say hello (I know a lot of you) and add a few things that I know. Firstly I'm really impressed with all the work and thinking some of you have done here. I've written the factory to ask about how they set the platen on the film inserts for 6060. Mosty if there is a problem with focus, certainly I and they will recommend contacting the factory in Germany. I hope to have some information about this film insert thing soon, or perhaps someone from factory will jump in an post themselves.
But I understand the joy of tinkering and I have to admit I've done some of these kinds of things myself - such as making my own magnifying lupe finders, fitting strange lenses, making my own behind the lens shutter adapter, front filter thread bezel for the FX-N, and my custom tilt shift lens adapter for the awesome 150mm APO Schneider PQ bellows lens. I do love the 'can do' approach that I see here, but I worry that changing platen spacing on the insert isn't the right solution. These are all hand assembled low production cameras and lenses. I am still amazed at how great the Hy6 cameras are ergonomically and the lenses are amazing. I am thankful for everyone's patience. The factory is still in operation, still producing new Hy6 Mod2's and 6060 film backs and lenses, and does take care of issues that come up.
The Autofocus circuit in the Hy6 is independent from the focusing screen calibration / manual focus by eye. In a new camera both have been calibrated and should match. Focusing to infinity is a 3rd calibration from the first two. You can change the infinity focus on a lens by changing the focusing ring position to the helical without affecting the calibration of the focus screen or AF. This would be my prefered way of approaching the problem when a camera system can't focus out to infinity. Before doing anything I'd really want to be sure it's off. There are a lot of parameters involved with testing - the AF offsets, the AF spot size, and possible user error. Just saying... I sometimes forget to set the AF to manual, or check the AF offset. And things can be in the lens and not the camera too, particularly if it had been serviced by someone in the past. Recently I had a 300mm APO lens that have come through my used section that focused to infinity on my Hy6 mod2 camera but didn't focus out to infinity on the customers 6008AF camera. I sent this lens to Mr. Feely at Key Camera and he was able to reposition the focus ring on the lens with a 6000 series body for about $150.
If you change your platen spacing, you will undoubtedly need to change also the focus screen placement and recalibrate the AF offsets for each lens. I'm still in doubt this is the right way to approach the focus problem, however the viewfinder frame focus screen doesn't need shims - There are 4 screw holes on the perimeter of the viewfinder frame with little phillips screws underneath. The two screws bottom of screen are revealed when you lift the frame. Mark things carefully and make adjustments no bigger than 1/8th a turn. Much much easier to do with a digital back. The reason why I know this is the first AFi-ii 12 digital backs were shipped with improper sensor position and I calibrated my focus. Leaf later identified an issue with a key piece of their calibration equipment and resolved the issue. But without a digital back, I'd probably send the camera to the factory (DW-Photo.eu) and have it done properly.
Another piece of information that I've been told by the factory is that for the most part the Rollei 6000/Hy6 lenses are set such that the infinity mark is not true infinity but the hyper-focal for the widest aperture of that lens. Makes sense for most work except maybe shooting the milkyway,
Wow - this got to be a bit long - sorry!
Thanks, Eric. This is very welcome news.
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I enjoy helping others keep obsolete darkroom equipment (especially electronic equipment) functioning. But I'm not an authorized Rolleiflex repair person. I know for sure I have posted assumptions about the function of the Hy6 in this thread that may not be correct, so I'd defer all questions about the correct film back adjustment and focus offset adjustment to Eric.
What we FILM USERS really need is the best way to set the focus offset without attaching a digital back.
What we FILM USERS really need is the best way to set the focus offset without attaching a digital back.
I remember adjusting the 35mm rangefinders by placing a piece of frosted tape across the film gate to act as a ground glass. That won't work here of course, but whoever cooked up that idea was a genius. What would be handy is a ground glass holder that can be attached in place of the normal film back that mimics the exact position of the film plane. It could be used to calibrate offset and viewing screen. It could be financed with a GoFundMe and shipped around the country from Hy6 user to Hy6 user like a chain letter. Hahahaha!
My 35mm Nikon cameras have the film pane location marked on the body. I don't think the Hy6 has such a mark. If you could determine the film plane, then you could make something to hold a ground glass viewing screen, like the Hasselblad SWC focusing screen adapter.
I can visualize myself taking on a project like this. I once designed a lens board for my enlarger that allows me to fine tine the lens to accommodate slight errors in parallelism between the negative, lens, and paper planes. Sometimes, solving the problem is half the fun. Starting with a scrap film back would be easier than starting from scratch. But, the precision required for a project like this would be beyond my skill set.
[edit] I just looked up that Hasselblad SWC focusing screen adapter. It's perfect!
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This is one of the checks I did on my pressure plate alignment. Similar to how I setup the film plane on a medium format technical camera. I'm holding the laser for the picture, but for the test it is affixed firmly above the device. The two optical flat glasses need to reflect back to the same point.
I also mount the lens with a front filter and see the laser bounces off the filter and the pressure plate the same.
I think maybe the pressure plate on my insert may have been pressed in accidentally after it left the assembly line. After adjusting it, I treat it with care; the insert is a precision device that sets the focus for the entire system. If the pressure plate attached to the insert is out of whack just a little bit it messes everything.
I also mount the lens with a front filter and see the laser bounces off the filter and the pressure plate the same.
I think maybe the pressure plate on my insert may have been pressed in accidentally after it left the assembly line. After adjusting it, I treat it with care; the insert is a precision device that sets the focus for the entire system. If the pressure plate attached to the insert is out of whack just a little bit it messes everything.
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For AF offset with film, it's a matter of using a roll of film per lens and good note cards that will appear in the film and with print large enough to be legible even when not in focus. I was looking for something fast and easy so I ended up with a diagonal row of wine bottles spaced about 3 inches apart on the film plane and 3 inches apart on the lens axis set out on a table with good lighting behind the camera on the bottles. You want to turn the AF slider on the camera off, set camera to Aperture priority metering, at widest aperture for the lens, and set the camera on a tripod about 5 to 6 feet away (for an 80mm lens), and compose the frame such that the middle bottle or whatever you use is in the center spot of the focus screen. Make a note card for each possible offset from -15 to +30 by 5' and add the 33 too. Position the first card at the center object and use the options menu to set the AF offset to that value, then use the spot focus button just above the AF slider to focus the camera on to the center object. Go ahead and give it a few presses to make sure it's locked in and snugged down on the focus. Take the picture, replace the card with the next value, set the offset to that new value and spot focus, take picture. Repeat for all cards. Process the roll and see which card and gives you the sharpest center object and card. You may have two frames that both look good - so you can set the value in between them. Note that your camera may save these values for some lenses and not for others. If you have a Mod2, it will remember the AF offset values for many more lenses, but not necessarily all legacy lenses you can mount so it's a good idea to check the AF settings and change lenses to make sure it's keeping the value for you. I made myself a little sheet for the lens with the AF offset values just in case.
Calibration of the actual focusing screen position - I've not tried to do that with film but such adjustment will be an iterative process. To be honest, this is one setting that I've never seen come out from the factory wrong and since this isn't an obvious adjustment to make, most were never messed with. I have seen it many times when a user complained about mis-focused images that the screen had been removed and inadvertently turned over upside down. That's pretty common actually since both sides look very similar. The most diffuse side faces down toward the mirror, the most reflective side faces up toward the viewer. I will try to catch the reflection of a ceiling light or something bright on both surfaces to make sure which is most reflective. I've also seen one or two cameras where the finder frame wasn't all the way seated - this I regularly check - it's easy to lift but not get back properly - you have to set it down and pull the frame back and then gently hold down and slide forward. Those simple things may account for a lot of the potential manual focusing errors. Check them first before assuming your camera needs some focus calibration. Also changing the focus screen will not change anything with the AF focus action as they are two independent systems. I highly recommend leaving the focus screen adjustment to the factory or a trained service station, however if you do want to get into this, let me make the suggestion that you move each screw only 1/8th turn max per adjustment, and turn all 4 screws the same amount each time, make notes. Unscrewing the screws raises the screen, tightening lowers the screen. If you have a 2nd focus screen you can open the film back, remove the insert and then carefully tape the screen up to the little top and bottom rollers on inside face of film back. Then you can focus the lens onto that temp rear screen and check for correspondence on the upper one. But again - I can't really recommend you try this at home. Sending to the factory is the safest.
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Focus spot size - factory is suggesting to use full for most applications including AF offset calibration. I did notice that for shooting portraits for example with the AF 180 that it could focus on the eyeglasses rather than the eye and DOF is so thin so for things like that I switch to focus spot small where the camera would now focus on the eye rather than the glasses. My understanding is that the small focus spot size needs good light and/or subject contrast. For landscape situations, or larger subjects I use Full. I recently got 'dinged' by the factory for suggesting to use small focus spot setting for AF offset calibration, however this is what I have always used myself. If there is good light and you have good object separation it shouldn't make any difference however factory is suggesting not to use 'small'. I am going to ask the factory to publish their recommended AF offset calibration routine. Hopefully they will have time.
Small seems better, but I understand the lighting might be more of a factor with small. Taking your offset calibration procedure above as an example, for the focus to be accurate, my assumption would be that the focus area should be limited to the focus target which would be the single wine bottle in the middle. If the focus area included parts of other objects (wine bottles), I would be afraid that those other objects could influence the focus result or introduce errors.
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