Rolleiflex Hy6...One of the last medium format cameras in production

[Anaxagore]

We have slightly different understandings of hyperfocal - I thought that if you focused on a point (say 45m), the hyperlocal focusing numbers were the near and far distances in focus at a given aperture (say 25m to ∞). But its all good - as long as ∞ is covered.

My understanding of hyperfocal distance at a given aperture would be, in your example, the 45m, provided that 45m is the minimum focusing distance that includes ∞ in what is in focus (i.e. focusing on a closer point removes the ∞ focus), thus maximizing the depth of field at that aperture. Even if theoretical formulae can be used to compute the hyperfocal value for each (focal length, aperture) couple, I wish DW could have on their website either tables or charts that one could download and print before going out — not necessarily to maximize the depth of field but also sometimes to ensure, without having to check the scale on the lens, that ∞ will not be in focus.

Post #73 to review how it works. Reading both Hy6 and MZ54 manuals won't really tell one what to do.

I agree this is one of the most frustrating parts of the manuals. The 3562 adapter also comes with a small instruction booklet, but it does not provide any help either. And btw anyone who does have a 54MZ flash should be careful not to lose the light-reducing filter that is attached around the secondary reflector (I have 2 such flashes and lost both of these filters).

Rollei at one time had a vacuum back for the 6000 series to help with film flatness.

The 70mm magazine(s) for the 6000 series did have a connection for a “vacuum hose attachment”... It looked like Rollei built these with some Mamiya parts (the vacuum pump from Mamiya fits this back perfectly..) and some Nikon parts (the data part, which is identical to the one Rollei used for the much simpler 220 data back and that came from Nikon), but apparently not all 70mm magazines did have the data part. I wonder how many 70mm backs were made, with/without data part, and with/without film speed wheel (I got one without the film speed wheel, meaning the exposure compensation dial has to be used on the 6008). Was there ever a Rollei vacuum back for standard 120 or 220 film?

The paper is not standardized, or may not even be present (220)

This has another consequence, which is that old daylight processing boxes (such as the Agfa Rondinax) may have a film slit that is too large and instead of pulling out the backing paper while the film should stay in the box, the thin backing paper and the film both get pulled out of the tank. This seems to be more common nowadays with films having backing paper thinner than when these boxes were designed.

 

[ic-racer]

I specifically bid on a Mz54 just because it was shown with the accessory light-reducing filter. But it was not in the box when I received the flash, though, the ebayer did give $10 back. But I'm still without the filter on either of my flashes.

 

[Dave Krueger]

I specifically bid on a Mz54 just because it was shown with the accessory light-reducing filter. But it was not in the box when I received the flash, though, the ebayer did give $10 back. But I'm still without the filter on either of my flashes.

Ugh. Reminds me of the time I bought an RB-67 lens specifically because the seller said "No fog or haze.". To be fair, he did take it back with no objections.

 

[GG12]

My understanding of hyperfocal distance at a given aperture would be, in your example, the 45m, provided that 45m is the minimum focusing distance that includes ∞ in what is in focus (i.e. focusing on a closer point removes the ∞ focus), thus maximizing the depth of field at that aperture. Even if theoretical formulae can be used to compute the hyperfocal value for each (focal length, aperture) couple, I wish DW could have on their website either tables or charts that one could download and print before going out — not necessarily to maximize the depth of field but also sometimes to ensure, without having to check the scale on the lens, that ∞ will not be in focus.

Not to draw too much to this, but I think there are/were two different understands of hyperfocal. The older, more classsical deffinition ( If remembered correctly) was the range that was in focus, for a given aperture, both in front and behind the focus point.
It seems this was later understood a bit different: now hyperfocal is seen to be the point of focus point that has infinity as its back “always in focus” point. Not sure what happened to the forward point, unless this version of hyperfocal means the full range, from front to infinity.
I am not sure it really matters a lot, just thought it worthwhile to clarify.

 

[MattKing]

As I understand hyperfocal distance, it is the distance that the lens is focused to which results in the largest range - closest to farthest - where subjects are in acceptable focus.
If you look at the related calculations you will see that you will get that result when the farthest distance in the calculation is effectively infinity.

 

[Anaxagore]

As I understand hyperfocal distance, it is the distance that the lens is focused to which results in the largest range - closest to farthest - where subjects are in acceptable focus.
If you look at the related calculations you will see that you will get that result when the farthest distance in the calculation is effectively infinity.

That is exactly my understanding. Maximizing the range of distances that are in focus (the depth of field) at a given aperture (let's say a = closest point in focus, c = farthest point in focus, and b = focus point), means maximizing c-a, which one can understand as c-b + b-a (splitting the distances is useful because mathematically infinity minus anything finite is still infinity and comparing infinity to infinity is undefined.). One needs first to make sure that c=∞, because that way an infinite c-b (resp. c-a) is always larger than a finite c-b (resp. c-a), whatever the (finite) value of b (resp. a). The second step is to minimize a, without removing c=infinity.

I think the difference of definition is rather a difference in terminology (read: we have the same definition but write it in 2 different ways) -- Hyperfocal distances (plural or "classic definition") being the (a, c=infinity) couple (full range from minimal a to c=infinity), while hyperfocal distance (singular, or modern definition) is the value of the focus point b that corresponds exactly to this (a, c=infinity) couple (definition using just one number instead of 2, but for the same purpose). If the classical definition does not require c=infinity, then I admit I do not get why it is called "hyperfocal" (which carries that idea that the depth of field is maximized) and not simply depth of field.

 

[ic-racer]

I don't recall any different definitions of hyperfocal. From what I understand it has always been the closest distance at which the lens is set so that infinity is in focus for a given f-stop and given print viewing conditions.
Obviously the distance is all over the place due to variations in print viewing conditions. In my test I produced 8x8" prints and viewed them at arms length.

Almost all lens manufacturers have the information engraved on the lens for the hyperfocal distance of each aperture based on some some nominal print viewing distance.

 

[ic-racer]

I have only had a few moments to assess my new 6008AF. Right off the bat I noticed that the shutter button at first seems sometimes un-responsive. This is from being in the "SINGLE" AF mode. I'm so used to using "SINGLE" AF mode on the Hy6 and nearly instantly hitting the focal point. The 6008AF takes a little longer, thus it lock out the shutter release a little longer. Plus there are more items where it can't find the exact point. So if the "F" in the viewfinder is blinking and the shutter is not releasing, it is because it can't find the focal point.

 

[Pieter12]

I have only had a few moments to assess my new 6008AF. Right off the bat I noticed that the shutter button at first seems sometimes un-responsive. This is from being in the "SINGLE" AF mode. I'm so used to using "SINGLE" AF mode on the Hy6 and nearly instantly hitting the focal point. The 6008AF takes a little longer, thus it lock out the shutter release a little longer. Plus there are more items where it can't find the exact point. So if the "F" in the viewfinder is blinking and the shutter is not releasing, it is because it can't find the focal point.

I remember reading the AF on the 6008AF wasn't that fast or great. The Hy6 Mod2 is far superior, even compared to the original. That's what I've read--I only have experience with the Hy6 Mod2.

 

[ic-racer]

I got a good deal on the 6008AF. It is new in box with warranty cards, but just a body without battery, strap, grip, back or lens. It was less then an new Hy6 Prism. The idea being I can use my existing 90 degree prism on the 6008AF. I like using wide angle lenses higher in the air, so the 90 prism is best for that. Problem is the 90 degree prism has a small image of the screen and it is hard to focus. Thus the reason I wanted the autofocus.

The same place also had a used but like-new 80mm AFD lens, which I bought.
The AFD (without aperture ring) lens does work on the 6008AF and 6008i in shutter priority and auto, but there is no way to set the aperture for aperture priority or manual.

 

[ic-racer]

As I'm pouring over negatives to print I have discovered two sources of focus errors that are related to the user.
1) Self Timer--No pre-timer autofocus
2) Mirror Lockup--No pre-mirror up autofocus

So, in these two cases one needs to use manual focus.

I'm still looking for a workaround for the self timer issue. Using the self-timer is one of the reasons to have an autofocus camera in the first place.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

Mine is for sale in the classifieds right now.

 

[Pieter12]

As I'm pouring over negatives to print I have discovered two sources of focus errors that are related to the user.
1) Self Timer--No pre-timer autofocus
2) Mirror Lockup--No pre-mirror up autofocus

So, in these two cases one needs to use manual focus.

I'm still looking for a workaround for the self timer issue. Using the self-timer is one of the reasons to have an autofocus camera in the first place.

I only use AF "on demand" --that is with the camera set to MF and activating AF with the button above the mode selector. That way the focus is set and you can use mirror lock-up and the self-timer.

 

[ic-racer]

I only use AF "on demand" --that is with the camera set to MF and activating AF with the button above the mode selector. That way the focus is set and you can use mirror lock-up and the self-timer.

Nice.

 

[ic-racer]

Little bit if a lens nightmare. I have way too many lenses and not enough lenses that do what I want to do. For a system that is backward compatible, there are a lot of incompatibilities. This has led me to duplicate almost all my focal lengths.

What fits what as of today. The ones in BOLD are the only matchings that really make sense. So, although the 6008AF takes all my lenses, none of them make any sense on that camera as it requires the AF lenses with the aperture ring .
6008i : SLX 40mm**, SLX 120mm**, PQ 80, PQ 40, PQ 50
6008AF: SLX 40mm**, SLX 120mm**, PQ 80, AFD 80*, AFD 50*, PQ 50
Hy6: AFD 80, AFD 50, PQ 50, PQ 40, PQ 80

*No aperture control, also may not be recommended, shutter does not always work right
**Stop-down metering

 

[Dave Krueger]

Little bit if a lens nightmare. I have way too many lenses and not enough lenses that do what I want to do. For a system that is backward compatible, there are a lot of incompatibilities. This has led me to duplicate almost all my focal lengths.

What fits what as of today. The ones in BOLD are the only matchings that really make sense. So, although the 6008AF takes all my lenses, none of them make any sense on that camera as it requires the AF lenses with the aperture ring .
6008i : SLX 40mm**, SLX 120mm**, PQ 80, PQ 40, PQ 50
6008AF: SLX 40mm**, SLX 120mm**, PQ 80, AFD 80*, AFD 50*, PQ 50
Hy6: AFD 80, AFD 50, PQ 50, PQ 40, PQ 80

*No aperture control
**Stop-down metering

All three of my lenses have the aperture ring. I intentionally avoided AFD lenses because I wanted the 6008 as an escaped plan if the Hy6 body became unusable for any reason, which is turning out to be an increasingly prescient decision. The downside is that AF lenses are more likely to be considerably older than AFD lenses and therefore susceptible to age related maladies.

Since 6008AFs are so hard to find, I may have to settle for an integral. Do you know if the AF lenses can be used as manual focus lenses on the 6008i?

[edit] This chart seems to say that AF lenses can't be used on 6008i/ii:

 

[ic-racer]

I think you have noticed the AF lenses gear the lens to focus faster than the focus ring turns. This makes them easier to use on the non-AF cameras.
The AFD lenses fit on the 6008i and work in program and shutter priority auto, but I get occasional shutter error, so maybe it is not a good idea. (Now I see it is because my AFD are also PQS and using PQS on older 6008 is not good due to higher battery draw, this is giving the shutter errors,)

Comparing the 6008AF to Hy6, yes the 6008AF has some of the finest manufacturing of just about any camera ever made, with better fit-and-finish than the Hy6. But the Hy6 is a much easier to use camera. The light weight is paramount and the AF is better.

If I had the money I'd have two Hy6 and get rid of all the 6008 stuff. Eric has a used Hy6 Mod2 about 1/2 price of a new one coming in he will list shortly. I suspect it will be snatched up quick.

To return to the film plane of Hy6. Going from 0.7 to 0.3 is MASSIVE in its effect. Many exposures of my first rolls were pretty useless due to focus in front. Now all my negatives have perfect focus. No issues at all, and I have not even set the AF offset with tests. I just made sure infinity was as it should be and, under the assumption the camera is setup perfect from the factory, the rest of the focusing falls into place as it should.

Also, to point out, when the tape comes through the film channel, it will always bind a little, irrespective of the pressure plate location. This is because the magazine squeezes the film tight against the teflon tape on the magazine to stretch it flat.

 

[ic-racer]

Here is another chart. I think that one above is meant to indicate there will be limitations in function.

I'm also noticing a high pitched chirp when using the AFD lenses on the 6008AF, so I'm going to stop doing this, even though the do fit and autofocus and seem to function OK in auto mode. Also, the shutter won't close when using the mirror up.

 

[Anaxagore]

Comparing the 6008AF to Hy6, yes the 6008AF has some of the finest manufacturing of just about any camera ever made, with better fit-and-finish than the Hy6. But the Hy6 is a much easier to use camera. The light weight is paramount and the AF is better.

If I had the money I'd have two Hy6 and get rid of all the 6008 stuff.

If I had to keep only one, I would find it more difficult to make a choice, for the following reasons. I will begin with the reasons I’d choose Hy6 over 6008 then switch:
- indeed slower autofocus on the 6008 (it’s not uncommon for it to go back and forth so many times I have to move the center point a small bit to get it on something with more contrast)
- the eternal question of the 6008 batteries that age fast, don’t last very long before they need to be recharged, which has to be done with a Rollei charger; Vs the Hy6 more standard batteries that can be charged with many other chargers - but finding a Varta or Sinar V190 battery today is impossible, only compatible ones do exist, and some of the compatible chargers do not perform well.
- the weight when used with film back. With digital backs, these backs are so heavy anyway I don’t notice much difference, even if there certainly still is some.
- the 6008 requires removing the film stage before switching to digital (but I believe that film stage had been discussed enough in this thread).
- the Hy6 takes all AF/AFD lenses without limitations except for some that need to be updated so the PQS does not become PQ... the 6008 has the aperture priority issue when an AFD is used.
- the used market for lenses makes AF lenses much more difficult to find nowadays than AFD versions.
- the Masterware remains an accessory for the 6008 that cannot be found anywhere (maybe staying day and night on auction sites and classifieds would yield an outcome), is anyway outdated (cannot find many computers with a serial port RS232 today) when, if I am not mistaken, most of its functions are integrated into the deep, complex menus of the Hy6.
- the 6060 magazine does both 120 and 220 (just don’t forget to adjust it in the menu or your 220 film will be wound up to the end after the first 12 shots...)
- the focus trap options on the Hy6 may be hard to reach in the menus but are a nice addition.

- the used market makes 120 film magazines for the 6008 (and 220 even more with the demise of the format) much cheaper than 6060 for Hy6, and in general accessories for 6000 are cheaper than for Hy6 when there is an incompatibility between the systems (prisms/viewfinders, film magazines, quick tripod coupler or handle, remotes wired and wireless)
- some fancy accessories for the 6000 are considered outdated do not exist for the Hy6: 220 data back, 70mm magazine, V-finder, wireless remote (Mamiya-based), tripod coupler/gun-like handle, Polaroid magazine. There may be other ones that I am forgetting, given how creative Rollei was. I do regret the wireless remote particularly, maybe DW could work with PocketWizard to make a module for the Hy6.
- the way the magazines are attached to the body with the Hy6 isn’t as practical as with the 6008. You really have to push all corners at the same time. It happened to me once that my film magazine had the left side improperly attached, letting light go through, while the right side (with the body connections) was properly attached, and so it looked like there was nothing wrong until I turned the body to the left side to make some adjustments and realized half of my film would be blank...the change in design (with the magazine adapter now attached to the magazine) makes the magazines bulkier compared to how they were when the 4560 could be shared between 6008 and Hy6. Another drawback of the new film magazines is that there is no way to put a piece of paper with the film name inside the magazine when changing films, so it’s easy to forgot the type of film one had (I use a small piece of plastic glued to the magazine top for that, but the adhesive isn’t strong and it has a tendency to fall off)
- having the film motor in the magazines was a good idea to reduce the weight when using a digital back, but having the batteries inside the magazine was a terrible idea when you infrequently shoot film and find out the batteries have died with some film still inside, unfinished.
- the plastic becomes sticky on the Hy6, like many items done at the same time that had this soft feeling originally and are now all sticky..
- the small screen on the Hy6 handle is very fragile (well, the plastic part around it). The 6008 could be packed tight in a backpack, but with the Hy6 it should not otherwise the plastic around the LCD may break. Plus the Hy6 handle is not removable nor can be turned in all directions like the 6008, which makes it more difficult to pack for a trip.
- all 6008 buttons were properly labeled, on the Hy6, even if I use it often, I never remember which wheel is the one adjusting shutter time and which one adjusts aperture. I also found the bracketing options on the 6008 easier than on the Hy6 where they are buried in the menus.
- the DIN socket on the Hy6 is smaller but that makes it more difficult to connect the remote, especially as the handle has more chances to be in the way than on the 6008.

I won’t discuss the availability of digital backs, the Hy6 of course has more modern and higher resolution backs than the 6008 (the Leaf Afi-II, Credo, sinar eSprit) with possibilities to rotate the backs without removal for some of them, the 6008 on the other hand has some good options (Hassy CF39 with multi shots) but nothing with higher resolution for out of the studio. If someone were looking for a Rollei for digital, I’d advise the Hy6 mod1 to be converted to mod2 by DW with the request to keep Sinar compatibility..

To me all of these pluses and minuses on each side mean it would be really a hard choice if I had to sell one..

 

[Pieter12]

Another drawback of the new film magazines is that there is no way to put a piece of paper with the film name inside the magazine when changing films, so it’s easy to forgot the type of film one had (I use a small piece of plastic glued to the magazine top for that, but the adhesive isn’t strong and it has a tendency to fall off)

I have resorted to a small strip of black artist's tape (it comes off easily and doesn't leave any residue) with the film type written on it with a silver sharpie. I put that on the handle so it is very obvious what is in the camera. When I change film type that tape goes on the film insert carrying case.

I do agree with your other points, although the thumbwheels work the same way for the aperture and shutter as Nikon digital cameras, so it was already familiar for me.

 

[Dave Krueger]

The AFD lenses fit on the 6008i and work in program and shutter priority auto, but I get occasional shutter error, so maybe it is not a good idea. (Now I see it is because my AFD are also PQS and using PQS on older 6008 is not good due to higher battery draw, this is giving the shutter errors,)

Thanks for this info.

To return to the film plane of Hy6. Going from 0.7 to 0.3 is MASSIVE in its effect. Many exposures of my first rolls were pretty useless due to focus in front. Now all my negatives have perfect focus. No issues at all, and I have not even set the AF offset with tests. I just made sure infinity was as it should be and, under the assumption the camera is setup perfect from the factory, the rest of the focusing falls into place as it should.

Your focus issues seem to be identical to mine. In hindsight, I wish I had tried your insert adjustments first and skipped the step of paying* the factory to tell me the camera is working fine. I hope they send it back soon.

[edit] *To be fair I haven't paid the factory anything yet, but they told me how much it will cost to get the camera back.

 

[Dave Krueger]

...
To me all of these pluses and minuses on each side mean it would be really a hard choice if I had to sell one..

How about servicing them? I think I read somewhere that there is at least one place in the US that can service 6008 series cameras. I would consider that a plus.

 

[Dave Krueger]

Here is another chart. I think that one above is meant to indicate there will be limitations in function.

I'm also noticing a high pitched chirp when using the AFD lenses on the 6008AF, so I'm going to stop doing this, even though the do fit and autofocus and seem to function OK in auto mode. Also, the shutter won't close when using the mirror up.



View attachment 258811

Thanks. That chart is better.

I had been under the impression that the AFs and AFDs were almost identical except for the aperture ring and some possible glass sorting or something. Maybe there are other differences.

 

[Pieter12]

How about servicing them? I think I read somewhere that there is at least one place in the US that can service 6008 series cameras. I would consider that a plus.

The good news is Key Camera in Colorado does service the 6008. The bad news is he is the only one, so it can take a while if he gets too busy. I don't know if he services the Hy6, but he does work on AFD lenses. The Hy6 might have to go back to Germany.

 

[Dave Krueger]

The good news is Key Camera in Colorado does service the 6008. The bad news is he is the only one, so it can take a while if he gets too busy. I don't know if he services the Hy6, but he does work on AFD lenses. The Hy6 might have to go back to Germany.

That is good to know. It would be better if there were a couple more places to send them, but I imagine that access to parts is very limited.

I had my Nikon F2 serviced a while back. Estimate was 8 weeks. I finally asked for it back after 11 months.