Rodinal gets better with age?

[subsole]

I did some checking and Matt is exactly right. Blazinal is indeed manufactured by Compard and therefor is one of the "original" R09 formulas. That makes Adonal (so far as I can tell) the only direct Rodinal replacement - at least if you consider the LAST or LATEST version true Rodinal. I apologize for my confusion earlier.

The R09 produced by Compard is the latest (or last) version of Rodinal.The same goes for ADOX Adonal.Both direct Rodinal replacements.
"Original" pre war R09 is produced by Calbe (ADOX APH 09)in Germany and Foma (Fomadon R09) in the Czech Republik.

Cheers
Wolfgang

 

[Ian Grant]

I've seen this said on occasion but I'd like to know where it comes from.

It's based on research and experience and found in developers from Agfa, Agfa Ansco, Adox, Ilford etc, Crawley also writes about it in his long series of article 1960/61 and subsequent BJP Almanac sand Annuals.

In practice when I was shooting a lot of 35mm I found that Adox Borax MQ gave finer grain, better sharpness and shadow detail so a slight increase in film speed compared to ID-11/D76. Because there's less physical development the shadows areas were cleaner giving better shadow separation and overall tonality, the term cleaner working is often used by manufacturers to describe some developers.

Ian

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

The R09 produced by Compard is the latest (or last) version of Rodinal.The same goes for ADOX Adonal.Both direct Rodinal replacements.
"Original" pre war R09 is produced by Calbe (ADOX APH 09)in Germany and Foma (Fomadon R09) in the Czech Republik.

Cheers
Wolfgang

This is what I originally thought. However, I can no no longer find documentation of that. Could you possibly point us to it somewhere on the web? I see instances where it is said to be 'the AGFA Rodinal Formula' but I do not see where it is specified as being the 'latest' formula. Thank you. Shawn

 

[Alan Johnson]

What do you propose the hydrolysis products would be?

Re: Hydrolysis products of metol,even if (old) Kodak knew they probably would not have published.I don't think they did for the hydrolysis of phenidone but just made dimezone-S.
Individuals could pay for recent journal articles, search "methylaminophenol hydrolysis. No free answer to this question.

 

[subsole]

This is what I originally thought. However, I can no no longer find documentation of that. Could you possibly point us to it somewhere on the web? I see instances where it is said to be 'the AGFA Rodinal Formula' but I do not see where it is specified as being the 'latest' formula. Thank you. Shawn

I phoned Fotoimpex (Adox) and Maco (Compard distribution) they both told me the same.
I've used both Rodinal formulas and the difference is very subtle.

Cheers
Wolfgang

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

I phoned Fotoimpex (Adox) and Maco (Compard distribution) they both told me the same.
I've used both Rodinal formulas and the difference is very subtle.

Cheers
Wolfgang

Thank you for that, Wolfgang.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Re: Hydrolysis products of metol,even if (old) Kodak knew they probably would not have published.I don't think they did for the hydrolysis of phenidone but just made dimezone-S.
Individuals could pay for recent journal articles, search "methylaminophenol hydrolysis. No free answer to this question.

The reason I asked is that I was unaware of any literature on the subject. I could not see any plausible hydrolysis other than the formation of p-aminophenol. There would be no loss in developer activity in this case. This would also explain the pinkish color that I see with Kalogen. However the depth of color indicates that the reaction is slight.

The chemistry of Phenidone is well known and is given by Mason.

 

[StoneNYC]

I phoned Fotoimpex (Adox) and Maco (Compard distribution) they both told me the same.
I've used both Rodinal formulas and the difference is very subtle.

Cheers
Wolfgang

If there is ANY difference, subtle or not, they are not the same...

How long ago did you phone them? Over the last year or so, Adox got all rights to use the original latest formula, and the distribution for compard doesn't come from the Adox production house (or whatever it's called).

They are NOT EXACTLY the same and the Adox version is the match to the last Rodinal bottle, this is direct from the Adox rep on APUG....

Sheesh.

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

Sheesh.

My goodness. If that post deserves a 'sheesh' I'm not sure what many of yours would merit.

 

[miha]

Compard distributes R09 One Shot. It's made by Tetenal. See MSDS in their database
Adox Adonal is also made by Tetenal. See MSDS in their database.
The MSDS of R09 One Shot and Adox Adonal differ.
Both comapnies claim that their product is made using the Rodinal recipe.

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

Compard distributes R09 One Shot. It's made by Tetenal. See MSDS in their database
Adox Adonal is also made by Tetenal. See MSDS in their database.
The MSDS of R09 One Shot and Adox Adonal differ.
Both comapnies claim that their product is made using the Rodinal recipe.

What HAS become clear to me is that I'm glad I started mixing and using my own D23... Two ingredients and water, THAT I can keep straight!

 

[miha]

What HAS become clear to me is that I'm glad I started mixing and using my own D23... Two ingredients and water, THAT I can keep straight!

Hear, hear, I'm going to do the same once I run of my stock of commercial developers.

 

[Xmas]

Compard distributes R09 One Shot. It's made by Tetenal. See MSDS in their database
Adox Adonal is also made by Tetenal. See MSDS in their database.
The MSDS of R09 One Shot and Adox Adonal differ.
Both comapnies claim that their product is made using the Rodinal recipe.

Since there has been more than one Agfa Rodinal recipe that is not necessarily helpful information.

But most of the paraaminophenol high alkaline concentrates are similar and keep for ever, even Azol... when you use them there won't be detectable difference? The concentration difference pre and post WWII would be difficult to detect?

The people who use ground up painkiller in drain cleaner claim similar performance...

 

[Ian Grant]

Ian,

Solvent etching and physical development characteristics are highly complex though. It just seems strange such a generalization regarding sulfite concentration and solvent effect would hold. I'd like to see the studies/data on this.

I'm not entirely sure about Crawley's chemistry, but if the solvent effect peaks at 75g/l how does he explain why he increased the usual 100g/l to 125g/l in FX-5 for example?

Michael

The solvency effects don't peak at 75g/l this seems to be roughly the point where there's an optimal balance for certain developer formulae, higher levels of Sulphite then begin to give more physical development and a subsequent loss in effective emulsion speed. That's consistent with Crawley's writings.

Then there's what's optimal for an all general fine grain MQ (or PQ) developer or for a super (extra) fine grain developer, these are usually just Metol based.

So it's about the best balance for a definite purpose.

Ian

 

[StoneNYC]

Compard distributes R09 One Shot. It's made by Tetenal. See MSDS in their database
Adox Adonal is also made by Tetenal. See MSDS in their database.
The MSDS of R09 One Shot and Adox Adonal differ.
Both comapnies claim that their product is made using the Rodinal recipe.

The Adonal rep said they bought the facility and rights a year ago, so unless Adox owns Tentenal, this info is outdated....

 

[MattKing]

The Adonal rep said they bought the facility and rights a year ago, so unless Adox owns Tentenal, this info is outdated....

I wouldn't treat anything said about Rodinal as being definitive.

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

The Adonal rep said they bought the facility and rights a year ago, so unless Adox owns Tentenal, this info is outdated....

If that is true...

I wouldn't treat anything said about Rodinal as being definitive.

this becomes even more germane.

Then we'd be looking at what time period something was manufactured/purchased as well as who did the actual manufacturing... Somewhat of a mess.

 

[miha]

The Adonal rep said they bought the facility and rights a year ago, so unless Adox owns Tentenal, this info is outdated....

Not true:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[StoneNYC]

Not true:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Thank you for posting that link. Besides the "buying the factory" which I somehow miss-remembered, the rest of what I said is proven right by your link, that Adox has the last and latest formula and that all other manufacturers are clones, CLOSE but not exactly the same ...

 

[MattKing]

Not true:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

This may be more clear: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[Roger Thoms]

Come on guys let's see how fast this thread can break the 15 page barrier!! Go team!!

But we are only at four pages.

 

[miha]

Stone, i didn't say anything about the ORIGINAL Rodinal, What I said and you faill to understand is that ADOX does not produce their ADONAL developer, It's manufacured by TETENAL, so is the COMPARD variant. See what you've wrote in post #125.

 

[StoneNYC]

Stone, i didn't say anything about the ORIGINAL Rodinal, What I said and you faill to understand is that ADOX does not produce their ADONAL developer, It's manufacured by TETENAL, so is the COMPARD variant. See what you've wrote in post #125.

Ok sorry, The way you phrase your statement was misleading, making it sound as if both products being produced by Tentenal, meant that they were both the same products, when in reality they are different products produced by the same manufacture...

 

[StoneNYC]

This may be more clear: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

YES!!!

This is the post I was remembering....

Thank you Matt!!!!

(Also I hope you can see now why in my brain, I was thinking that they were no producing under their own factory, because he mentioned having built up their own factory...)

 

[miha]

How was my statement misleading when I clearly said that the two MSDS differ is beyond me.