Rodinal gets better with age?

[StoneNYC]

Blazinol = Adonol (in Canada). Those are the "official" Rodinals in North America. Everything else is some form of R09. At least that is my understanding.

Are you sure, because I don't believe that Adox owns the Blazinol company... They stopped distributing the official formula a year or two ago and only package it for themselves now what the Adox guy said), so unless it's a sub company to Adox, I don't think you're correct.

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

Are you sure, because I don't believe that Adox owns the Blazinol company... They stopped distributing the official formula a year or two ago and only package it for themselves now what the Adox guy said), so unless it's a sub company to Adox, I don't think you're correct.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I think they are the same, Stone.

 

[StoneNYC]

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Yes but if it's not derived from Adox then it's no longer the same distribution... Regardless of the name or parent company, unless that parent company is Adox, then it's not the official Rodinal formula.

I'm not saying it isn't, I'm saying that I don't know what the parent company of this blaze company is...

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

I'm not going to argue with you. Besides, Ian will pop in and clear it up sooner or later.

 

[StoneNYC]

I'm not going to argue with you. Besides, Ian will pop in and clear it up sooner or later.

Oh good I would like that, and of course I don't want to argue either so, moving on and awaiting Ian's word. Lol

Let's get back to arguing about the ingredients in Rodinal instead LOL

 

[StoneNYC]

I don't understand arguments over the "real" formula anyway. My understanding is the "original" "real" formula was changed by Agfa over the many years anyway. So even if you get a bottle from whichever company has the "real" formula, it's not the "real" one from 100 years ago, which means it isn't as good and you shouldn't use it unless you are stand-developing a special order of double-X cine film in a Jobo processor.

Haha!

ACTUALLY Adox also owns and produces the older formulation too if you really want that...

I BELIEVE this is it... It used to say "old Rodinal" but now it doesn't but says it's a 1900's formulation so I think this is it... When the site changed I lost all my links.

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/12055-Adox-Adolux-APH-09-500ml

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

My understanding is the "original" "real" formula was changed by Agfa over the many years anyway. So even if you get a bottle from whichever company has the "real" formula, it's not the "real" one from 100 years ago, which means it isn't as good and you shouldn't use it unless you are stand-developing a special order of double-X cine film in a Jobo processor. And don't forget the extra iodide and pinch of Ansco 130. That really makes it sing.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

I always like to follow up my 3-bath Pyro-Amidol version of Rodinal negatives with a good mercury intensification.

 

[StoneNYC]

I'm confused but I think I'm being teased... LOL

I'm not switching from Rodinal anytime soon, it's my go-to-dev but if I can make it even sharper... why not? lol

 

[MattKing]

Yes but if it's not derived from Adox then it's no longer the same distribution... Regardless of the name or parent company, unless that parent company is Adox, then it's not the official Rodinal formula.

I'm not saying it isn't, I'm saying that I don't know what the parent company of this blaze company is...

There is no parent company. Blazes Photographic Inc. is Mike Boylan's photographic distribution business. As of 2012 he was buying direct in bulk from the manufacturer, Compard, and bottling and labeling it with Blazinal (not Blazinol).

 

[StoneNYC]

There is no parent company. Blazes Photographic Inc. is Mike Boylan's photographic distribution business. As of 2012 he was buying direct in bulk from the manufacturer, Compard, and bottling and labeling it with Blazinal (not Blazinol).

EXACLY, not Ridinal, the R09 formula is SLIGHTLY different than the original Ridinal, while Adonal is EXACLY the same as Rodinal.

That's what I meant.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Put simply p-Aminophenol in a Rodinal type developer has a long shelf life, a similar Metol based developer keeps badly as a single solution so needs to be stored as 2 parts or made up fresh each time.

This has not been my experience. I routinely use my own improved version of Kalogen which is a Metol-hydroquinone analog of Rodinal. The original formula was developed by Paul L Anderson when Rodinal became unavailable during WWI. It is made like Rodinal using sodium hydroxide. I have a PET bottle of it that is more than 7 years old still pink in colorr and shows no loss of activity. Paradoxically p-aminophenol, Metol and hydroquinone are more stable at a high pH where they exist as phenolates.

 

[MattKing]

EXACLY, not Ridinal, the R09 formula is SLIGHTLY different than the original Ridinal, while Adonal is EXACLY the same as Rodinal.

That's what I meant.

Rodinal went through a variety of changes over many years before the Agfa "disruption"

The R09 version is one of them - an older one.

The Adonal version and the current Adox version is/are more recent than the R09 version.

Which one would you like to refer to as "original"?

 

[StoneNYC]

Rodinal went through a variety of changes over many years before the Agfa "disruption"

The R09 version is one of them - an older one.

The Adonal version and the current Adox version is/are more recent than the R09 version.

Which one would you like to refer to as "original"?

Haha! Fair enough, well, the "most refined" version then? LOL (of course that's subjective too I suppose). I'm curious what the old Rodinal version looks like, it's cheaper too! Only $7-$8 vs $13-14! Pretty sweet

 

[miha]

It's hard to believe how much confusion has been caused by various Rodinal names.

 

[Jerevan]

...not to mention the discussions, that would make a scholastic philosopher cry out in shame. Get out there and see what develops instead, dang it!

 

[Alan Johnson]

This has not been my experience. I routinely use my own improved version of Kalogen which is a Metol-hydroquinone analog of Rodinal. The original formula was developed by Paul L Anderson when Rodinal became unavailable during WWI. It is made like Rodinal using sodium hydroxide. I have a PET bottle of it that is more than 7 years old still pink in colorr and shows no loss of activity. Paradoxically p-aminophenol, Metol and hydroquinone are more stable at a high pH where they exist as phenolates.

I wonder if Kalogen is a special case.In my experience:
Perceptol, believed metol based with pH<8, lost its activity after 3 years in a sealed bottle (metol hydrolysis?).
Gainer's Metolal , a metol based Rodinal copy lost activity in less than 2 years in a sealed bottle (metol hydrolysis?)
The p-aminophenol developing agent in Rodinal does not lose activity in this way. I have some Azol about 65 years old, still works.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

I wonder if Kalogen is a special case.In my experience:
Perceptol, believed metol based with pH<8, lost its activity after 3 years in a sealed bottle (metol hydrolysis?).

Perceptol is very similar to Microdol and D-23. At a pH < 8 the phenolate cannot form as it must be around a pH of 12.

Chemically Metol and p-aminophenol are very similar. In fact Metol resists oxidation better than pap hence its widespread use as a developing agent.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Kodak's high definition developer, also metol based, may have had a short shelf life but had a high pH one would guess.
I favour the idea that , unlike Rodinal, these metol based developers decompose by hydrolysis not oxidation when in sealed bottles.
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
Its resistance to this hydrolysis is a Rodinal characteristic. Gainer's copy, Metolal did not have this resistance in my test but had a very high pH.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

I favour the idea that , unlike Rodinal, these metol based developers decompose by hydrolysis not oxidation when in sealed bottles.

What do you propose the hydrolysis products would be?

 

[Athiril]

I located my notes on using potassium iodide. Crawley states that iodide can used with FX-1 to enhance adjacency effects, however, in doing so it also accentuates lens aberrations and flare. He also says that potassium bromide can also be used instead of the iodide. So there is nothing magical in the use of iodide.

There is nothing magical about potassium iodide. It simply works, and works on a micro level. Using more, and it starts becoming a restrainer, and a terrible one at that (for most purposes), it doesn't work evenly across multi-layer films as a restrainer.

Adding Iodide may still help with some films which could be why Athiril is seeing these effects. It wouldn't help with high Iodide films like Tmax but it's why replenished developers can give higher quality results compared to the same developer used one-shot.

Ian

I'm not so sure that's the case. I'll try it at some point. People also say that about a certain sulfite concentration (about 75g/L iirc) that there is no more increased solvent effect on grain. They're para-phrasing someone else's work. And they are wrong. Even on T-Max 100, I could see a difference between 100g/L and 85g/L of sulfite in terms of grain, with everything else identical.

So I wouldn't automatically make that conclusion without first testing it.


Example images from a very high level scan.

100g/L
http://oi41.tinypic.com/k350eh.jpg (probably easier to see if you view it full size)

85g/L
http://oi39.tinypic.com/2q9xnjr.jpg

 

[StoneNYC]

There is nothing magical about potassium iodide. It simply works, and works on a micro level. Using more, and it starts becoming a restrainer, and a terrible one at that (for most purposes), it doesn't work evenly across multi-layer films as a restrainer.




I'm not so sure that's the case. I'll try it at some point. People also say that about a certain sulfite concentration (about 75g/L iirc) that there is no more increased solvent effect on grain. They're para-phrasing someone else's work. And they are wrong. Even on T-Max 100, I could see a difference between 100g/L and 85g/L of sulfite in terms of grain, with everything else identical.

So I wouldn't automatically make that conclusion without first testing it.


Example images from a very high level scan.

100g/L
http://oi41.tinypic.com/k350eh.jpg (probably easier to see if you view it full size)

85g/L
http://oi39.tinypic.com/2q9xnjr.jpg

I can't quite understand what the difference between these 4 photos ...

 

[Athiril]

2 Photos. Difference in grain. The links above the pics are for bigger viewing. Just to demonstrate a point to not automatically repeated info ad nauseam that people don't try out themselves. Sodium Sulphite is supposed to reach peak solvency ay 75g/L according to sources iirc. Both these values are above that, and there is only a small difference in amount between them, yet still show a difference between them.

Back to potassium iodide.. I will try that out on a t-grain film at some point, perhaps in Rodinal with KI vs Rodinal without.

 

[Trask]

I, for one, look forward to hearing of your results.

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

There is no parent company. Blazes Photographic Inc. is Mike Boylan's photographic distribution business. As of 2012 he was buying direct in bulk from the manufacturer, Compard, and bottling and labeling it with Blazinal (not Blazinol).

Rodinal went through a variety of changes over many years before the Agfa "disruption"

The R09 version is one of them - an older one.

The Adonal version and the current Adox version is/are more recent than the R09 version.

Which one would you like to refer to as "original"?

Haha! Fair enough, well, the "most refined" version then? LOL (of course that's subjective too I suppose). I'm curious what the old Rodinal version looks like, it's cheaper too! Only $7-$8 vs $13-14! Pretty sweet

I did some checking and Matt is exactly right. Blazinal is indeed manufactured by Compard and therefor is one of the "original" R09 formulas. That makes Adonal (so far as I can tell) the only direct Rodinal replacement - at least if you consider the LAST or LATEST version true Rodinal. I apologize for my confusion earlier.