Reports of (Colour) Kodachrome Home Processing Emerge from Sydney

Well, IDK if the color developers were in 2 parts in the machine or not. I do know that they go bad fast when fully mixed. The tanks themselves become bright Cyan, Magenta and Yellow. Very messy.

And yes Fred, it is RX like. Ahhh, the good old days. Hope you had a nice lunch.

PE

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you had three sheets (R, G, and B, to keep it simple...) you wouldn't necessarily have to re-expose to Red, Green, and Blue light, you could (since the exposure is on three separate sheets) re-expose each sheet to white light, then redevelop the R sheet in the cyan developer, the G sheet in magenta developer, and the B sheet in the yellow developer, right? That would eliminate the complexities of filtration and exposing only one side. Of course then you'd have the registration problem when you went to put it back together. IDK.

ME Super

Stephen Frizza said:

Hello Apugers

I have been very quiet on APUG lately and have been busy in my lab doing some experiments and tests. As it seems this Kodachrome one ended up online here as a result of me posting it on my personal Facebook Page.

There are some things I should mention about this test....

1stly : I have absolutely no intention of offering it as a service. The Cost, The limited amount of chemistry I have for this process and the fact no new film stock is being produced means this just wont happen.

2nd : While the thread states HOME processing people should be aware that I am working in a fully equip professional photographic lab which without I could not have done this process.

3rdly: While Kodachrome is process K-14 I did not strictly process this in k-14 chemistry. It was processed using an butchered version of this process and other improvised adaptations which can yield a result but the chemistry does not keep nor can I guarantee the archival properties of the final product. Its a one shot process.

Thanks for the interest in one of my personal tests .

-Frizza

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You do realize you now officially stole the title from Dwayne's Photo for "Last roll of Kodachrome processed", correct? You also stole the tile of "Last roll" from Steve McCurry as well. Congrats on re-writing photographic history!

Awesome

PeteZ8 said:

You do realize you now officially stole the title from Dwayne's Photo for "Last roll of Kodachrome processed", correct? You also stole the tile of "Last roll" from Steve McCurry as well. Congrats on re-writing photographic history!

Awesome

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They'll just keep it the same and add the word "commercially" in whatever books covering said subject.

ME Super said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you had three sheets (R, G, and B, to keep it simple...) you wouldn't necessarily have to re-expose to Red, Green, and Blue light, you could (since the exposure is on three separate sheets) re-expose each sheet to white light, then redevelop the R sheet in the cyan developer, the G sheet in magenta developer, and the B sheet in the yellow developer, right? That would eliminate the complexities of filtration and exposing only one side. Of course then you'd have the registration problem when you went to put it back together. IDK.

ME Super

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This is exactly correct. And, the color developers would be much simpler.

Registration would not be a significant problem, as many processes used it in the past. The real problem is the thickness of 3 sheets of support which may cause some sharpness problems. IDK for sure.

PE

Thanks PE. That's what I thought. Sharpness problems would probably be lessened for projection (or even scanning) if the three positives were bigger than 35mm, or even medium format. Of course if you're gonna scan it, all you really need is the separation negatives and put it back together in post - which of course makes it a hybrid process. At least for me the reason to shoot chromes is for projection (secondarily to have a good color reference in-hand to give the printer for prints).

<tongue-in-cheek>Who's gonna start making this new Apugchrome film and a camera to shoot it in? </tongue-in-cheek>

I have just about everything to do this, but want to confirm sources and chemicals with Steve.

PE

Ken Nadvornick said:

This (highly interesting) thread is living testament to the power once exercised by Kodak's marketing department. The marketing personnel may all be dead and gone, but their legacy lives on.

Ken

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I think there are a few Kodak marketing people still with us.

My Dad looked still reasonably spry today when I visited him. He may have been retired since the mid 1980s, but he was employed by the marketing division of Kodak Canada for the previous quarter century or so.

And as was common in his time, he had a pretty good knowledge about the practical technicalities of Kodachrome and Ektachrome, because that was important if you worked in the marketing department.

Worker 11811 said:

I can't imagine how it could be done in regular hand tanks. Spiraling film on and off the reels, once wet, would be nearly impossible.

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Correct spools, reels for a complete film would be a nightmare and I have not and will not explore that avenue. All my tests were with very easy to manage strips no longer than 5 or 6 frames.

Nzoomed said:

Correct me if im wrong, but as far as i understand, Kodachrome is essentially a B&W film made of 3 layers sensitised to each of the 3 primary colours?

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correct.

wblynch said:

If it were me I would create a 'stretcher' or rack where the film strip gets mounted all flat out. Then a set of long troughs, or tall cylindrical tanks that the stretcher would be immersed in. You could easily control the reexposure by side and light color by placing the rack on a light bar.

Although I'm sure you would have to process in darkness, it could be an assembly line type of affair. Drop in tank1 for time, pull the rack out and on to light bar 1, then on down the line.

Click to expand...

For my printing stages I used one of those curved black duping easels it held the film nicely, protected the side i wanted protected during the re exposure etc...
One thing that is paramount in the process is making sure when you expose a layer you expose it completely without effecting the other layers. In exposing a layer completely the dye development baths will dye the film correctly however if you don't entirely expose the entire red or blue layer to completion when it comes time to doing chemical reversal of the green layer the left over silver halides in the other layers develop in the magenta dye bath and cause colour contamination (sorry Ron if you think my terminology is off) but im sure u know what I'm referring to at this step.

Photo Engineer said:

I have just about everything to do this, but want to confirm sources and chemicals with Steve.

PE

Click to expand...

Ron I will send you a private message about source of chemistry for the process.

For those whom are not aware of what is involved in processing Kodachrome here is a very lay mans step by step of the process.....

After mixing up your chemical solutions (tedious in its own right) and preparing wet and dry work space this is what is required to process this film....

The basic steps of the process are as follows....

Step 1 = Alkaline bath for removal of rem jet layer
Step 2 = Wash
Step 3= first developer
Step 4= wash
step 5= Exposure of unexposed silver halide in the red layer of film (though base non emulsion side)
step 6 = cyan developer
step 7 = wash
step 8= blue layer re exposure (via emulsion side)
step 9= yellow developer
step 10= wash
step 11= chemical reversal of green layer
step 12= wash
step 13= magenta developer
step 14= wash
step 15= Pre bleach bath
step 16= bleach
step= 17 Fixer bath
step 18 = wash
step 19 =stabilizer
step 20 dry.......

Stephen,

Quite the accomplishment. Very well done, and thank you for sharing your findings!

- Thomas

I'm thinking of some ideas that could make this process doable in a home lab. It's strictly theoretical. "Vaporware," if you will:

I have a tabletop reversal tank for movie film. It's called "Morse G3."
It's a large daylight tank with two reels inside used to crank film back and forth, through the developing solutions. There's a window on the side used to let light in for the re-exposure steps. You open the window, shine a light through the portal and crank the film, slowly, past the light stream.

The problem with this tank setup is that it's very hard to get even, predictable development owing to the fact that, most of the time, the film is wound up on reels. The film can't get evenly wet by the chemicals.

However, if we're developing 35mm rolls of still camera film, we're only talking about lengths of film 1 or 2 meters long. It might be possible to create a labyrinth system of rollers inside the tank that keeps the film submerged in the chemistry at all times. If we splice a piece of Mylar film onto the tail of the roll of film to be developed, we can create a mobius loop. Each time you cycle the film around the "track" it flips over. First the emulsion side of the film faces the window then, on the second lap, the base side of the film faces the window. Just turn the crank and the film is re-exposed in the proper order.

Placing a glass filter over the window ensures the correct color of light exposes the film. On the first lap, the red filter is placed over the window. On the second lap, the blue filter is used. On the third lap, no filter is used.

Let's imagine how this might all come together:

Place the head end of the film into feed roller of the tank. There's already a length of Mylar threaded through the labyrinth system. All you have to do is splice the head of the film to the tail of the Mylar and turn the crank until the film is fed in. At the end, splice the end of the film to the end of the Mylar loop, making sure the film is twisted to create the mobius loop. Close the tank and prepare the chemistry.

Chemistry could be distributed in paper juice boxes. It's pre-measured and ready to use but for mixing. (Which I'll deal with in a moment.)

Temper the juice boxes by submerging in hot water until they are the right temperature. Because paper juice boxes have a little hole in them, used to poke the straw through, we could use that hole to poke in a thermometer. Submerge in hot water and gently shake every few minutes until they are at the right temperature.
When the temperature is right, tear open the spout and pour into a container to mix the "A" and "B" solutions if necessary. No measuring. It's already pre-measured. Just pour and stir.

Put the solutions into the tank and turn the crank to agitate. Open a valve at the bottom and drain out the solution when it's time.
Pour in the next solution or rinse water, crank, time and drain. Repeat with each solution, in turn, as necessary.

When it's time to re-expose the film, place the correct glass filter in the holder and open the port hole. Crank the film past the window at the right speed until all the film has passed the window. Close the portal and continue with the redeveloping solutions.

At this point, the mobius loop will have caused the film to turn over so that the other side faces the window. If all is done right, you should be able to crank the film past the window using the other filter to expose the back side. When done, close the window again and redevelop the second time.

For the third redeveloping step, don't use any filter. Just crank the film past the window with no color and go for the third redevelopment.

Close the window, rinse, fix, condition or what-have-you. When finished, open the tank, take out the film and dry.

A tank for this purpose would probably have to be, maybe, two feet long, a foot wide and at least six inches tall. It would be a fairly large tabletop unit. That gives some room to add some extra gewgaws.

An electronic, digital timer could be built into the top of the unit which is preprogrammed with the times needed for each step. Press the right button to set the preprogrammed time and hit the "start" key. The timer counts down, beeps to remind you when to agitate and beeps continuously when the time is over.

The color filters could be a red, blue and clear glass disk that rotates behind the window. Simply turn the knob to place the right color over the portal.

The Mylar leader could be colored so that you can see it through the window. It could have numbers of symbols printed on it.
At the start of the first round, a number "1" will show through the window. At the end, of the first lap an "1-X" could appear.
For the second round, a "2" and a "2-X" could appear.

A notch could be cut in the edge of the Mylar leader that allows a cam and follower mechanism to warn the user when he has turned the film for a complete lap through the system. The cam could ring a bell, set off an electronic beeper or advance a mechanical counter that lets the user know how far to turn the crank and advance the film.

Theoretically, the whole thing could be motorized or, if an Arduino microprocessor is used, the whole thing could be automated.
If you really wanted to guild the lily, the filling and draining of chemistry could be automated, too.

However, at first, I would shy away from too much automation because it would make the whole thing too expensive.

The main problem I see with this setup is cost. It would be expensive to develop and costly to sell.
I don't know if there is enough undeveloped Kodachrome still left in the world to make this a worthwhile project.
Maybe, if I had thought of this ten years ago, the situation might be different.

However... "Chicken and the egg"...
If somebody could produce these kits at a price people could afford, maybe they'll create enough demand for product that somebody would be able to produce it.

I know, it's wishing in one hand and sh*tting in the other.

P.S. - If anybody ever develops this product and makes it to market, I don't want money. All I want is free product for life.

Randy;

Admirable but still with unsolved questions!

Where do you get the chemicals and what are they? How are they mixed? What are the formulas for the solutions?

There are 4 that I see.

As for your process, there is a machine like that used for processing Aerial film. It is motor driven and the solutions are poured into the tank directly. We got good uniformity. I see it as workable. However, with a Mobius loop, how can you tell absolutely which side is facing the window after multiple rewinds of the film?

PE

Packaging, I've got worked out. Actual sourcing of chemistry, somebody else is going to have to work that out.
Package it in paper juice boxes. Temper the sealed boxes in hot water. Tear open, mix and pour at the right times. It's all premeasured.

Mobius loop: Put a notch in the edge of the Mylar leader. A cam and follower rides on the edge. When it hits the notch, it trips a mechanism which rings a bell, advances a counter or sets off an automated process on the microprocessor. (If a microprocessor is used.)

If you can't use a cam and follower, strips of metal foil tape could be stuck on the film with adhesive. They move past a detector, the same way that is done on cinema projectors. (It's basically a miniturized metal detector.) The detector lights a light, rings an alarm or advances a counter.

I prefer a cam and follower riding over a notch. That provides a positive stop at the right point in the process which lets you know the film is in position.

BTW: I didn't pay attention. You don't have to re-expose a third time for the third reversal, do you?
That makes it simpler. Only two laps around the track are needed instead of three. Only a red/blue filter is needed instead of white.
I should have paid closer attention before going off on a tear.

In the processor that I used to use, the film was in constant motion back and forth for agitation and uniformity. It was motor driven by a light tight lid/motor combination that fit on top and allowed room light processing. I have forgotten how we changed the chemicals for some reason. Thats odd. I just went to my memory for that and there was a blank spot. Oh well, there was some type of chemical dump method...

In any event, in an 8 minute first developer, I think that a large roll of Aerial Ektachrome made dozens of passes. By your scheme, this would result in many many reversals of the front-back relationship.

There are 2 light reversal steps, but you can use white light or a fogging agent for the magenta layer making 3 light reversals. That is optional.

PE

Right. The third reversal is a chemical reversal which renders all the remaining silver halide developable. I believe it's necessary to do it as a chemical reversal because silver in the red and blue layers could be blocking the green layer at this point. IDK though this is just speculation.

In a Mobius loop, the film turns over each lap through the system. First, the base side faces out then the emulsion faces out. (Or vice-versa.) Each lap changes the side facing in or out.

Also, the top and bottom edges change places, too. What was, once, on top now becomes the bottom. Each lap changes the side facing up or down.

Use a heavy piece of mylar leader. Double weight or whatever.

Cut a notch in one edge of the mylar leader. Place a small roller that rides on the top edge of the film. Connect that to a cam and follower. Place a second roller, cam and follower on the bottom. Connect both cams/followers to an escapement. The escapement moves a gear which, in turn, moves a signal flag back and forth.

Lap 1: The film goes around. The roller, cam and follower on the top falls into the notch as it passes. The mechanism moves and a little flag appears in a window indicating that the base is facing the exposure portal.

Lap 2: The film goes around again. The roller, cam and follower on the bottom falls into the notch as it passes. The mechanism moves and a little flag appears in a window indicating that the emulstion is facing the exposure portal.

On each successive lap, the notch goes from top to bottom, the rollers fall into the notch as it passes, moving the cams and follwers, advancing the escapement and changing the flag in the window from "base" to "emulsion" or vice-versa on every successive pass.

As long as there is an even number of passes of the film through the system, the film will be in the same orientation it started in:

• Develop for 8 minutes = 8 or 16 passes. (8 minutes from your example.)
{Even number of passes leaves film is in the same orientation.}

• Rinse for 1 minute = 2 passes.
{Even number of passes leaves film is in the same orientation.}

• Insert red filter. Open portal. Crank one pass. Close portal.
{Odd number of passes. Film has reversed.}

• Redevelop for X minutes = X or 2*X passes.
{Even number of passes leaves film is in the same orientation but it has already been reversed from the preceding steps.}

• Insert blue filter. Open portal. Crank one pass. Close portal.
Redevelop for Y minutes = Y or 2*Y passes.

Keeping track of the number of passes only requires the user to watch the flag in the little window.
He needs to watch for "Emulsion" or "Base" to appear at the right times. (Could be "1" or "2". Could be "RED" or "BLUE.")

At this point, if you're using chemical fogging, no more light passes are needed.
You do not need to keep track of the number of passes. Just crank. The flag mechanism could still be used to count the number or laps around the track, if necessary. You just don't need to remember emulsion/base or odd/even anymore.

What is the agitation scheme?
How fast does it need to move?
What length of time or how many laps does it need to make during one step of development?

As long as you count the laps, keeping track of "odd" or "even" you sould be all right. The rest is just timing.

More thinking...

Why am I trying to use a helicopter to cross the street?
Yes, my idea is workable but it's too complicated.

I could just use the already existing G-3 tank. Few modifications would be needed.

We only need to modify the reels inside the tank so that they allow the solutions to circulate around the film.
As they are, the convolutions of film lay together as it rolls up. Not enough solution is in contact with the film.
This is the main problem with the G-3 tanks.

However, we've got something working for us: Short film. Only six feet.
Can we make a reel that fits the existing tank which keeps the film apart? Possibly.

The tank already has an exposure portal. We only need glass filters to color the light properly.

1) Put film in tank, base side out.
2) Remove rem-jet. Develop. Wash. No counting needed. Just crank the cranks.
3) Place the filter. Open the portal. Crank to expose.
4) Redevelop #1.
5) In the dark, flip the reels over, putting the emulsion side toward the portal.
6) Repeat steps 3 & 4.
7) Chemically fog, redevelop and complete the rest of the process.

It's a little more work, a little more thinking and not as automatic but I don't think this is beyond the ken of anybody here who already knows how to develop reversal film processes. It just takes more steps.

It uses existing equipment with only a few modifications.

We only have to work out the modifications to the reels.

Stephen already knows the chemistry.

I think this could work.

Addendum:

What if we wound a piece of mesh or similar material up on the reels as the film goes on?
No modification needed. The mesh would hold the convolutions of film apart enough to allow solutions to circulate.

What kind of mesh or "spacer" material could we use?

Well Randy, we use 2L graduate cylinders for 35mm film. There was a weight and the film was looped. It was removed from the tank and hung in a rack for manual re-exposure. It is difficult to overexpose the red IIRC. Nothing else is red sensitive, Then the film is hung up again and the process is continued. Etc.

Your "mesh" system was once used by the EK 35mm tank. They used crinkled "aprons" to hold the film in a spiral and yet hold the emulsion and base apart on each part of the spiral. I have one here somewhere. Nice system.

But by your analysis, you did see elements of the complexity that I alluded to. Your second method is more sound and less costly.

PE

How about a series of plastic, ladder-like links which hook together to form a chain.

This plastic chain would be wound up on the reels with the film to act as a spacer to let the chemistry circulate around the film.

After that, we need to be sure we have the correct color filters of quality to do the job, a standardized light source and a repeatable formula for chemistry and it *MIGHT* be possible to do this in your basement.

We're not out of the woods yet, though. Still have things to work out... Still thinking...

P.S. -- The Morse G-3 developing tank: http://www.marriottcameras.co.uk/instruct3/morse_tank/with_pictures.htm

Wouldn't the ladder "rungs" press against the emulsion side too, to detrimental effect? The plastic aprons mentioned earlier attempt to avoid this by only really touching the film at the edges, which not only spaces the film out from its neighbor in the coil, but also from the apron itself.

Image stolen from ebay:



Duncan

The rungs of the ladder are smaller diameter than the rails. That part wouldn't touch the film at all. Only the rail part touches the film.

However, I like your plastic apron better.
It can't come apart like mine can. It's also thinner can can fit on the reel better and bend around corners more easily.
Best of all, yours is an already existing product. Mine would have to be manufactured.

Now, last problem to solve...
How do we flip the film over?

Without the apron, we would simply flip the reel of film over but, because of the apron, we can't do that.

Can we "S-Wind" the film, somehow?

I'm usually good at this kind of topology but I need to see the real thing, first, in order to figure it out.