Real photographers don't use Program...

Rol_Lei Nut · Nov 3, 2010

Only one of my cameras has it and I sometimes use it for wildlife photography using longer teles: the program on my camera is continuously adjustable, so basically I tell the camera to use 1/2000 (to avoid shake) when possible, and close the lens down using that speed if there really is lots of light.

For most other uses I find it pretty useless...

2F/2F · Nov 3, 2010

IMHO: Program mode is good if you care 100% about imparting information and trying to capture moments so fleeting that you simply cannot prepare for them in any way, shape or form, and not one bit about how photographic technique will affect the way the image looks in the end in other ways. Many people think like this, so Program mode works for them. I doubt you will see anything more than simple snapshots that have truly excellent results with the use of Program mode. Have some brains and prepare for likely shots ahead of time, and you are far better off than with program mode. You can't have some computer picking apertures and shutter speeds it "needs" if you expect your images to turn out exactly how you want them. If you don't necessarily want anything except for a snapshot of whatever is right in front of you, then maybe it is a benefit. At the very least use a priority mode, which involves the same thought process as manual exposure. (It's only main drawback is crappy exposures; It is a physical handicap, not a mental one like Program mode.) Full Program mode is a joke that gives you what you don't want a great percentage of the time.

Pioneer · Nov 3, 2010

I find all this very interesting. Although I am not at all sure exactly what a "real" photographer is, I am probably not one yet. But...I actually use all the options my cameras provide, depending on the situation. In fact, I actually have certain cameras that I have kept over the years specifically because they give me the flexibility of using Program when I decide I need it.

As for creativity, I think you can probably be creative with a camera phone if the mood strikes you, so I am not clear what Program mode actually has to do with creativity. If you mean that you are not able to control your aperture, your shutter speed, or other settings on your camera while using Program, I think that you are being awfully prescriptive about what it takes to be creative. Anyway, I just looked, and all my cameras that have a Program setting also have exposure compensation as well so I can use this to help influence what my camera is doing.

But, all kidding aside, I like full manual when I'm in the mood for that type of photography but normally I prefer using aperture priority when I have that option available. But like I said at the beginning, I doubt I am really what you would call a "real" photographer anyway.

Ooops, sun is going down. Time to grab my camera and go get creative with some evening shots. Now who set that darn camera on Program again?

Sirius Glass · Nov 3, 2010

First one must understand what a "real" photographer is:

A "real" photographer truly believes that he and alone can define that absolute "real" photographer. That means whatever he does is the only way to be a "real" photographer. Thus:

If he does not use auto-focus, then you are not a "real" photographer if you use auto-focus.
If he uses auto-focus, then you are not a "real" photographer if you do not use auto-focus.
If he does not use program modes, then you are not a "real" photographer if you use program modes.
If he uses program modes, then you are not a "real" photographer if you do not use program modes.
If he does not use the Zone System, then you are not a "real" photographer if you use the Zone System.
If he uses the Zone System, then you are not a "real" photographer if you do not use the Zone System.

That requirement is that the "real" photographer has found the TRUE RELIGION of PHOTOGRAPHY and if you do not practice as he does, you will surely burn in Hell.

Steve

waynecrider · Nov 3, 2010

Creativeness is not a property of a camera body to me unless it's a large format camera, and even then, creativeness is really a property of the eye of the photographer.
I basically see program mode as a speeded up, turn the shutter speed dial and center the needle adjustment. There is no difference on my cameras between Program, Aperture and Shutter speed priority modes. It's just a thumb wheel or exposure comp change.

blockend · Nov 4, 2010

What a real photographer is, I have no idea. Maybe some backwoods guy with a 10 x 8 Deardorff, a Weston IV and an old testament beard. 90%+ of my photography is street work: look, raise camera to eye, compose if I have time, shoot. If nothing has changed take a second shot with a tighter composition, move on. Maybe 5 seconds from first deciding to two frames fired and walking down the street. Anything that hinders that process is inefficient. Over the years that has included auto focus (too slow, or having it's own views about what the subject is) and auto exposure (back light, stepped programs, or illogically placed switches and buttons). Almost all my stuff is on Nikon or Canon SLRs, with a 50mm on one body and a 24 or 28mm lens on the other, both pre-focused. Some are 1960s tin boxes, others last generation AF but each are set to work the same way.

After years of trial and error I found that system gave me the highest hit rate of good shots and correct exposure. We all work different, it's not about right and wrong, real and unreal. No photographer graduates, we're only as good as our last picture. Here endeth the rant.

keithwms · Nov 4, 2010

Well I'll just go ahead and say it; I'm not ashamed. I am a real photographer and I use every tool in the box. And sometimes I have to come up with new ones.

Poisson Du Jour · Nov 4, 2010

I have a confession: yesterday I used the DEP mode on my EOS1N (to photograph two ferrets): the first such instance using this peculiar mode in more than a decade! Typical of my no-nonsense approach, after 2 frames I got sick of mucking around and went back to aperture priority and the much-loved "P for Professional"!

michaelbsc · Nov 4, 2010

keithwms said:
Real photographers don't use Program...

Click to expand...

Real photographers use any and all resources they need...

Real photographers understand program mode.

fschifano · Nov 4, 2010

michaelbsc said:
Real photographers understand program mode.

And there you have it. That's exactly correct.

tkamiya · Nov 4, 2010

Real photographers don't tell others how they must make their art....

Seriously folks, trying to define what real photographer must use and do is like trying to define the best way to pick one's life-time partners. As long as one is happy with the result, who cares?

BetterSense · Nov 4, 2010

I don't understand program modes because 1. In-camera meters suck/are stupid anyway 2. Program modes prioritize exposure, when exposure is just as flexible a parameter as aperture and shutter. When you use program mode you are basically saying "expose this way; I don't care what shutter speed and aperture I end up with", when shutter speed/aperture effect the look of the final print at least as much or more than exposure does. Most of my cameras are meterless and manual and a good bit of the time, I'm simply using whateverr shutter speed I want, and whatever aperture I want, and and leave exposure on the chopping block. I guess you could call it auto-iso mode!

michaelbsc · Nov 4, 2010

BetterSense said:
I don't understand program modes because 1. In-camera meters suck/are stupid anyway 2. Program modes prioritize exposure, when exposure is just as flexible a parameter as aperture and shutter. When you use program mode you are basically saying "expose this way; I don't care what shutter speed and aperture I end up with", when shutter speed/aperture effect the look of the final print at least as much or more than exposure does. Most of my cameras are meterless and manual and a good bit of the time, I'm simply using whateverr shutter speed I want, and whatever aperture I want, and and leave exposure on the chopping block. I guess you could call it auto-iso mode!

It sounds to me like you do understand program mode.

You'll note that I didn't say you have to use it. I don't think I've ever turned it on again after I figured it out on my Contax body. And I spent a boatload of money on the stupid MM lenses.

But I can certainly see that there are circumstances where it would be useful. I just don't happen to shoot that way, and it sounds like you don't either.

My comment's intent was to stress that program mode, in and of itself, isn't good or bad. It just "is" in the sense that it puts the camera in a position that the electronics will behave in a specific way.

(In fact, I'm getting to the point that I don't even like 35mm much at all. And there's no program mode on my Toyo.)

Michael

BetterSense · Nov 4, 2010

Sometimes I shoot color slide film; then I use my Nikon with matrix metering and auto modes, and the slides usually come out pretty good.

Athiril · Nov 4, 2010

My Yashica 35-ME only has auto.. well I can compensate with the fiddly ISO dial on the front of the lens.. but still.. doesnt stop me from using and liking it

Poisson Du Jour · Nov 4, 2010

BetterSense said:
I don't understand program modes because 1. In-camera meters suck/are stupid anyway 2. Program modes prioritize exposure, when exposure is just as flexible a parameter as aperture and shutter. When you use program mode you are basically saying "expose this way; I don't care what shutter speed and aperture I end up with", when shutter speed/aperture effect the look of the final print at least as much or more than exposure does. Most of my cameras are meterless and manual and a good bit of the time, I'm simply using whateverr shutter speed I want, and whatever aperture I want, and and leave exposure on the chopping block. I guess you could call it auto-iso mode!

This does not come across to me as a valid understanding of the way, generally, Program works.

1. In-camera meters suck/are stupid anyway

Presumably, so it holds true with hand-held meters? If not, why not? Where is the qualification?

Truth be told, no, they do not suck. Program actually is linked to the metering mode in modern SLRs and is highly variable: you are free to accept or change what is suggested, and even what is suggested will quite normally be changed if lighting changes during the exposure.

2. Program modes prioritize exposure, when exposure is just as flexible a parameter as aperture and shutter. When you use program mode you are basically saying "expose this way; I don't care what shutter speed and aperture I end up with", when shutter speed/aperture effect the look of the final print at least as much or more than exposure does.

Program does not "prioritise exposure", whatever you are saying by that. Besides which, it would involve a bit more than aperture and shutter speed, of course! Nor are you agreeing to the camera to "expose this way"; that will not be so if you are interacting with the camera rather than let the camera do everything for you! It doesn't work that way in active practice. And let's not forget You can actually determine through knowledgeable interaction which Av/Tv combination you want in many cameras with Program mode each, or both being variable; if you don't like it, go back to whatever else you use. Chances are in active use in challenging light you might just come away with a useful neg/positive (Program can be a big help for reversal exposures).

Vaughn · Nov 5, 2010

Real photographers are just a figment of the imagination.

I believe what all this boils down to is that the more a photographer knows about the tools and techniques of the trade, the more options they will have in their creative decisions. Program mode, if used as a crutch, can hinder the learning experience. But when used with knowledge of the relationships between shutter speed, aperature, film speed and the existing light, then the P mode can be a very useful tool.

Wade D · Nov 5, 2010

I bought a Minolta X-700 with a few lenses before a trip to Europe in 1984. My film of choice for that venture was K64. Not one slide was disappointing using the program mode. Most are stunningly beautiful.
I posted before that I now use other modes on my Maxxum 8000i. This is because I have grown beyond what I knew when the X-700 was new. Would the slides have been better now? Maybe, but not by much I would surmise.
Now I just have to find the slides in all my clutter!
Moving 4 times since then has put them in limbo for the present.
I hope they haven't been lost.
Still have 8 hours of video though. Quality=ugh. An old Beta recorder. Remember those?

blockend · Nov 5, 2010

By program mode I assume we're talking about computer full-auto exposure on late 35mm cameras? The ones I used alternated shutter speed and aperture up and down alternately until camera shake became an issue. Focal length was also factored in. It seemed to be deciding the look of the photograph as well as the exposure, although the override wheel juggled the settings. While I spun the numbers I wasn't looking at the image which had probably headed south anyway.

The argument may be how comfortable we are with analogue or digital technology. I find an abundance of viewfinder information a handicap. I like dials, not buttons. I prefer a switch to perform one operation, not open up a menu. My teenage son's fingers play multi-mode buttons like a piano. I sat next to a girl on a train who could type on her phone at dictation speed. Lacking those gifts, I muddle on with manual and a little aperture auto.

BetterSense · Nov 5, 2010

Presumably, so it holds true with hand-held meters? If not, why not? Where is the qualification?

I was thinking more of handheld incident meters, or just no meter. Reflective hand-held meters are also pretty stupid, but at least you are free to point a hand-held meter wherever you want. If you camera is in program mode, your camera will be reading any sky, light sources, open windows, etc. that happen to be in your composition.

You can actually determine through knowledgeable interaction which Av/Tv combination you want in many cameras with Program mode — each, or both being variable;

You can actually determine through knowledgeable interaction which Av/Tv combination you want in any camera with a manual mode...by setting them on the camera.

Program actually is linked to the metering mode in modern SLRs and is highly variable: you are free to accept or change what is suggested

Which takes time and interpretation, and usually the changes that you are allowed to make quickly are the shutter/aperture combination. Exposure can't be changed except through changing a kludgy exposure compensation dial and then re-trying to see if you can get the shutter speed/aperture that you want. If not, move the exposure comp dial some more and see if you camera will let you set them yet...

Pumalite · Nov 6, 2010

I think you can use whatever your instincts tell you.

Vilk · Nov 6, 2010

Sigh... Wish I had it on any of my crates...

PS. Earlier this week, while educating a friend who insisted on using the "intelligent" green-square setting on her idiot digicam rather than the P next to it (thus depriving herself of RAW format capability and exposure correction), I said, "Look, real photographers use the program mode..."

Leighgion · Nov 6, 2010

If real photographers don't use program mode, it's better to be a fake photographer.

TheFlyingCamera · Nov 6, 2010

I'm a depth-of-field junkie, so I prefer working in Aperture Priority, unless I'm doing lots of TTL flash- then I switch to P, but not the Green Box full-auto. With Program, you can still shift it one way or another.

j-dogg · Nov 6, 2010

real photographers shoot full manual ftmfw

seriously, I've used every single mode on my Rebel, Minolta and Elan 7e I can think of. Sometimes I have to go full manual, sometimes I wished full auto would output in RAW on my ****tal. whatever takes the shot is what wins.

I usually alternate between aperture and manual mode though.

Real photographers don't use Program...

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