Real photographers don't use Program...

3 Columns

A
3 Columns

  • 2
  • 2
  • 15
Couples

A
Couples

  • 1
  • 0
  • 58
Exhibition Card

A
Exhibition Card

  • 3
  • 1
  • 89
Flying Lady

A
Flying Lady

  • 6
  • 2
  • 109

Recent Classifieds

Forum statistics

Threads
199,040
Messages
2,785,238
Members
99,790
Latest member
suanmein
Recent bookmarks
0

Thingy

Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2008
Messages
192
Location
London, Engl
Format
Multi Format
When I got my first "proper" camera (as against my Kodak Instamatic), a Practika L2 with M42 50mm Tessar f2.8 lens (which was my birthday present from my father) there was NO automation. The L2 has no internal metering and was all mechanical (like my later OM1). After the "automation" of the Instamatic it was a bit of a shock. A friend of my father introduced me to using a darkroom (and being a Radio Ham I was also introduced to the morse & voice radio telephony on ancient (read thermionic valve) ex-military radio transmitters and a receiver). :laugh: He gave me my first light meter (solar cell variety).

I learned to do it the hard way.

Now when my father bought an upgrade SLR (after the L2 got sand in it & the quoted repair cost exceeded what my father had paid for the camera) he bought me an OM20. I wanted an OM1, but at the time they were VERY expensive. I used it on manual, as I was scared to use the auto settings (fear of new fangled devices :whistling:) I gradually came round and loved the ease of use of the aperture priority mode and the way it enabled me to capture interesting moments which the manual mode appeared to rule out.

So for several years I ONLY used AP mode.

To cut a long story short, I liked photographing buildings but got annoyed with the perspective distortion, so in my 20s bought an ancient (even then) MPP Mk V 5x4 camera. No idiot proofing (Linhof interlocks). All Manual. And in those pre-Maxwell days, a very dim GG (focussing screen). :pouty:

I loved its versitility. I also fancied a better camera but then learned of the cost! A secondhand Schneider lens, in those pre-internet days, cosy 2.5 months salary, after essential bills. :laugh:

Move forward to 2008.... Gone full circle. Started with an all-singing-all-dancing manual camera and.... bought my first Ebony (45SU). Never looked back.

I still use other cameras and auto exposure for other purposes, but what I like about manual exposure on a LF camera is that I feel that I, not the camera, has done all the work in making the image what it is. I feel full ownership of my images again (rather than feeling that I owe the camera half the credit). And I find the methodology of making LF landscape images very contemplative and relaxing. For me it comes down to my own, rather odd, philosophical view of what photography is for me.
 

Sirius Glass

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
50,391
Location
Southern California
Format
Multi Format
Well, I think that depth of field is one of the most important things one can control before taking a photo, so real photographers only use aperture priority mode :smile:.

A real photographer would not pass judgment on others based on rules. :tongue:
 

Chan Tran

Subscriber
Joined
May 10, 2006
Messages
6,832
Location
Sachse, TX
Format
35mm
If you are a real photographer you can use any mode you want. Nobody should judge you by the mode that you use. If you are new and don't know how the program mode work then don't use it. Manual is simpler.
 

bimmey

Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2013
Messages
98
Location
New Hampshire
Format
Multi Format
I'm not a real photographer and I don't use program mode. The only camera's I own that have that feature are digital. Most shooting is done in manual mode. Sometimes for fast evolving situations, I'll use aperture or shutter priority.

However if using"P" mode delivers what you are after, then how can it not be a tool of the professional?
 

DWThomas

Subscriber
Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Messages
4,605
Location
SE Pennsylvania
Format
Multi Format
I am not a pro, but a fair percentage of my cameras are totally manual -- I am the program! However, my 1980 vintage Canon A-1 has program mode and I used it a lot (still do) for basic travel shooting. Two of my digi-guys have P mode also, and again, I use it for general run of the mill travel shots. But when the lighting or the activity that is the subject makes aperture or shutter priority useful, I use it. What I virtually never use on my digitals is A! (On my EOS DSLR that doesn't work with RAW.)

They're tools -- boxes to contain the dark -- and knobs, buttons, links, levers, and pinions to control it. :whistling:
 
Joined
Jul 16, 2017
Messages
279
Location
Balearic Islands, Spain
Format
35mm
"Real Photographers don't use Program"
Ever heard of the No true Scotsman fallacy?
That is basically one of the most common examples of the NTS fallacy : " Real X don't X
Using a mode on your camera excludes you from being a REAL photographer? :wondering:
I'm not a real photographer because i like to put my camera on Program when using flash, which most always gives me exactly what i want?
 

OlyMan

Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2017
Messages
269
Location
Lancashire, UK
Format
Multi Format
Wonder what thought process makes people randomly resurrect a completely dead thread last posted to seven years ago? Seems to happen a lot on various forums. How do they even find it to start with? Must have been several hundred pages in from the top of the forum.
 

E. von Hoegh

Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2011
Messages
6,197
Location
Adirondacks
Format
Multi Format
Wonder what thought process makes people randomly resurrect a completely dead thread last posted to seven years ago? Seems to happen a lot on various forums. How do they even find it to start with? Must have been several hundred pages in from the top of the forum.

Scroll your page down all the way to the bottom, look for "similar threads".
 

OlyMan

Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2017
Messages
269
Location
Lancashire, UK
Format
Multi Format
Ah probably. Still, I wouldn't.
 

jim10219

Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2017
Messages
1,632
Location
Oklahoma
Format
4x5 Format
Of course! It all makes sense now! My doctor kept trying to convince me that none of the photographers that followed me around, constantly taking pictures of everything I do, were real. But I knew the law of averages dictates that some of them had to be real. The question was always, "which ones?". How do I determine the real paparazzi from the hallucinations? Now, I can rest easy knowing there's a foolproof test. All I have to do is look to see if they're using program mode on their cameras.

One more thing, if you guys don't mind helping me out just a bit more. What about the people using their cell phone's camera? Is that also considered program mode? Would they be real photographers, or figments of my imagination? Thanks in advance!
 

OlyMan

Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2017
Messages
269
Location
Lancashire, UK
Format
Multi Format
I can't believe I'm contributing to a thread that until today had been dead for over seven years. But no. It's preposterous. I thought the generation who believed no serious photographer used program mode were either already dead by now or were in a care institution dribbling beans down their bibs and having their incontinence pads changed hourly by the nurses. They were borne of the same thinking which considered no real photographer used autofocus, or Auto exposure, or TTL meters, or coupled rangefinders, or any other superfluous triviality that separated amateurs from real photographers who had the brutal raw talent to scrape a work of art into the emulsion by hand with a blunt pin.
 
Last edited:

Pioneer

Member
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
3,880
Location
Elko, Nevada
Format
Multi Format
Isn't aperture priority a "program" mode?
 

Bill Burk

Subscriber
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
9,323
Format
4x5 Format
Wonder what thought process makes people randomly resurrect a completely dead thread last posted to seven years ago? Seems to happen a lot on various forums. How do they even find it to start with? Must have been several hundred pages in from the top of the forum.
What's odd to me is that it feels like it was just a few weeks ago that I posted to this thread.
And I feel like I've known you 7 years. How did time get so twisted?
 

Sirius Glass

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
50,391
Location
Southern California
Format
Multi Format
If you are a real photographer you can use any mode you want. Nobody should judge you by the mode that you use. If you are new and don't know how the program mode work then don't use it. Manual is simpler.

+1
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
53,141
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format
It makes some sort of sense if you change one word in the title:
"Real Photographers don't have to use Program ...."
 

Ste_S

Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2017
Messages
396
Location
Birmingham, UK
Format
Multi Format
I'm disappointed that program mode on cameras isn't more programmable. I'd like to be able to set an ISO, aperture and shutter speed range and give weightings to any of the three.
If anyone is thinking of building a new 35mm film cameras, I'd like that please with connectivity to my phone to programme it. Also a programmable timer so I'm not holding a cable release for longer than a minute. Thanks.
 

blockend

Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
5,049
Location
northern eng
Format
35mm
The aim of camera designers in the late 1970s was to make SLRs as easy to use as a P&S. That way people could tote the then fashionable SLRs without knowing anything about photography, and still get a picture. It's quite a useful mode if you want to turn your left brain off and shoot. M and P cover everything from control freakery to whatever.
 

RalphLambrecht

Subscriber
Joined
Sep 19, 2003
Messages
14,658
Location
K,Germany
Format
Medium Format
...or do they? I run my N80 and F100 in Aperture most of the time, but every now and again I get the hankering to put the thing on autopilot and fire away. I'm usually satisfied with the results; I've decided that whatever the faults of my photos, it's always the loose nut behind the lens that is amiss.

But while I use Program more or less regularly, there's always a little niggling doubt in the back of my mind. On the one hand, a lot of writers give me the impression that Program is limiting my creativity, that I have given up control of my photos to the camera and its algorithms that the manufacturer built in. On the other hand, I paid big bucks, so to speak, for the program which is included, so I might as well use it, every now and again. Of course, YMMV.

What are your opinions on the creativity-robbing Program?

Thanks to all who reply.

With best regards,

Stephen
I use the program -mode because, I believe P stands for professional! Also letting the camera handle the technical side give the photographer more opportunity to be creative. Being overly concerned with technical issues is a creativity killer.
 

removed account4

Subscriber
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
29,832
Format
Hybrid
Isn't aperture priority a "program" mode?

as is using a built in meter ...
shhhh !

:smile:

who cares what mode someone puts their camera in
fully automatic .. great !
fully manual ... great !
something in between ... great !

the thing that matters is that the person with the camera
is having a good time. if they don't want to follow someone else's
conventions ... great ! most people who make over-arching
declarations of what somene is or isn't have to take a step back and
re-examine what the point is of using a camera and maybe making prints ( or not ) ..
and if real photographers are in some sort of "club of real photographers"
its a club i probably would not really want to be in .. seeing i probably don't
use the right type of camera, film, settings, developer, stance, tripod, film changing tent
darkroom gear, paper, enlarger and everything else the tribe claims one needs.
 
Last edited:

gary in nj

Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2017
Messages
62
Location
United States
Format
35mm
Whatever the situation calls for. On my film cameras I'm more inclined to use aperture priority, only choosing shutter priority for sporting events. On my digital cameras I typically use aperture priority, but will use Program when the situation dictates. With RAW files all of the data is there regardless of the chosen mode.
 

Chan Tran

Subscriber
Joined
May 10, 2006
Messages
6,832
Location
Sachse, TX
Format
35mm
I use the program -mode because, I believe P stands for professional! Also letting the camera handle the technical side give the photographer more opportunity to be creative. Being overly concerned with technical issues is a creativity killer.
P mode is certainly for the professional. If you are rank beginner don't use it.
 

Chan Tran

Subscriber
Joined
May 10, 2006
Messages
6,832
Location
Sachse, TX
Format
35mm
I'm disappointed that program mode on cameras isn't more programmable. I'd like to be able to set an ISO, aperture and shutter speed range and give weightings to any of the three.
If anyone is thinking of building a new 35mm film cameras, I'd like that please with connectivity to my phone to programme it. Also a programmable timer so I'm not holding a cable release for longer than a minute. Thanks.
Me too. They made it Programmed and not Programmable. I wish that they could make it programmable so we can decide how the mode works and not the designer. I can understand the early camera with P mode that it would be difficult to make it programmable but with today cameras it's an easy thing.
 
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
800
Location
Torino, Italy
Format
Large Format
my 1980 vintage Canon A-1 has program mode and I used it a lot (still do) for basic travel shooting.

It's funny how this 7-years old thread has been revived without any apparent reason. Oh well, anyway.

Coincidentally, I also used to own a Canon A-1. Excepting the fact that it was only available in black and had some horrible plastic part here and there, it was a terrific camera, with manual, aperture priority, time priority, programmed, and stopped-down exposure meter. Wow. It's still one of the most complete ever made in this respect.

However, although I thought I had struck gold at first, I had to scale back my expectations very quickly. First I realised that shutter priority is a dangerous tool, as it drags you in dangerous zones when the light is low. It works well when light is abundant, but who really needs any artificial intelligence help when light is abundant? However, the Program mode was what really turned me off.

The way in which the Program mode was... well... "programmed" by Canon engineers is illustrated in the user's manual in form of a diagram, and with my highest surprise it was absolutely linear. For simplicity, these are the shutter/aperture couplings that it will provide with a f:1,4 lens under progressively decreasing light:

1/1000 f:16
1/500 f:11
1/250 f:8
1/125 f:5,6
1/60 f:4
1/30 f:2,8
1/15 f:2
1/8 f:1,4
1/4 f:1,4
1/2 f:1,4
.
.
.
and so on. All is quite reasonable from 1/1000th down to 1/125th. We could argue wether 1/60th at f:4 is a good choice or not, but let's say it's tolerable anyway. But, below that, and exactly when the light becomes hard to handle and one would really need a help, the Program mode makes a huge huge mess. Why should anyone want to take a picture at 1/30th f:2,8, which will be almost certainly blurred, when it could be taken it at 1/60th f:2, or even better at 1/125th f:1,4? I would *never*, under no circumstances, do that. And why should anyone want to take a 100% likely blurred picture at 1/15th f:2, when there's still room to try it at 1/30th f:1,4 and have some chance to get perhaps a decent, sharp picture with some luck?

In few words, A-1's Program mode takes wrong decisions, at least in respect to what I consider a good photography practice, and these wrong decisions are taken in a range in which some intelligent help would be most welcomed. I later resold the A-1 for various reasons, and sometimes I miss it as it was a good camera. But what I have never, really *never* missed is its Program mode!
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom