Question about medium format folding cameras

[nokia2010]

Why it cannont?
But puten on a plain surface it can use them?

 

[Dan Fromm]

Why it cannont?
But puten on a plain surface it can use them?

Because.

More seriously, focusing and composing have to be done through the lens, i.e., on the ground glass. If the camera is not held firmly in position, setting it up to shoot -- closing and cocking the shutter, inserting or attaching the film holder, pulling the dark slide -- will move it (translation and rotation, both in three dimensions) and will change the composition.

 

[nokia2010]

Even wotj cameras like 'Ideal'.

 

[Dan Fromm]

Even wotj cameras like 'Ideal'.

9x12 camera. Not clear to me (I don't know everything) that there are roll holders for it. Using movements with it requires focusing and composing on the ground glass. Same problems.

Make up your mind what you want. Start with what you want to accomplish. Give up on cameras that take 35 mm and have movements. And give up on cameras that use 127 size film. 120 costs less.

 

[nokia2010]

For the moment I want a 120 (maybe 127) folding camera.
The 'Ideal' is something for the future, but it's a camera that made me curios.

 

[Donald Qualls]

So a larger format folding camera that had that up-down adjusment could make some perespective correction - not much as like as a tilting camera, but some could be done?

Some versions of the Ideal also have a drop bed, which can be used as forward-only front tilt (again, only when the camera is on a tripod, of course). One of mine does, the other doesn't.

 

[Kyle M.]

Hello. This is my first post here, so I hope I post in the right area.
I'm more intrested in medium format photography, because it's chepaer. Medium format means 120 or maybe 127 format. So I'm curios from all the '30'-'50's medium format film cameras, which where the best and the most relaible. And had more options. I intened to use this format for taking pictures from buldings - so some kind of city landscapes, so short (fast) exposure times isn't a must... I would like to use one at shows, but that's a distant desire.
There where any folding medium format cameras that allow lens changing?
And there where ever made one with sync for Xenon (electronic) flash?

Plus: there where ever made medium format folding cameras that allowed you to tilt the lenses in order to correct the angle of the image - let's say to get a square form a square form, not a trapezoid.

The last one is more hard. Well, I've seen a subject about it, but it only compared two cameras. Let's say you have cameras of different brands (like "A.G.F.A." and "Kodak") and the front of the camera it's the same size at both companies. Can you take the front of one of the cameras and put it onto the other camera. Or do this with the lens?

120 is going to be your best bet, although you can respool 120 film onto 620 spools in a darkroom or dark bag if you have too I've done it and it's not a lot of fun unless you only do it every once in awhile. 127 film is no longer mass produced, though there are a few smallish companies that slit 120 and respool it as 127 from time to time.

I've never seen a MF folder made to have the lens changed, one would need to recalibrate the rangefinder every time they changed lenses. Also most folders were made with a specific focal length in mind 75-80mm for 6x4.5 and 6x6, and 100-110mm for 6x9 so you would run into the problem of the bellows on a 6x9 camera being too long to focus a 75-80mm lens and the bellows on a 6x6 camera too short to focus a 100-110mm lens. On something like a MF folder or LF view camera the focal length of the lens gives you the distance from the film plane to the center of the lens to get infinity focus. Moving the lens further from the film plane focuses closer. Of course there are some retrofocus lens designs where this does not apply. There are also some MF folders like early Kodaks that use rails to focus as opposed to turning the lens, but you would still have to figure out your focus distances via something like a ground glass back and mark them on the bed.

There are many later 1950'-60's folders with X-Sync many of the Zeiss Ikonta's and the Moskva 5 for sure. I cannot recall if the Moskva 4 has X-Sync. I had a Moskva 5 and really liked it.

As far as lens tilt I don't know, maybe? I have an old Kodak 3A Autographic which took No. 124 roll film for 3-1/2"x5-1/4" (Postcard) negatives. It has front rise and fall and shift, but no tilt.

If you took the front standard with shutter and lens off of two cameras with the same focal length lens and swapped them that may work. This definitely will not work with different focal length lenses. Even two of the same lens from the same manufacturer can be slightly different. For example late Graflex Crown Graphics use a Rangefinder cam, if you have 4 different 135mm lenses you may well need 4 different cams. If you have two Schneider Symmar 135mm lenses you may need two separate cams to get perfect focus, as the lenses vary slightly.

There are cameras that can take 2 formats, like 6 x 4,5 and 6 x 6 or 6 x 6 and 6 x 9. But I wonder if on a film you can take 2 formats.
I know about that small window.


Also I know that most of them don't have a rangefinder installed. I must use a telemeter (forgot how is called in English) for close photography. "Mockba" ("Moscva") 4 and 5 are rangefinders and can use both 6 x 6 and 6 x 9.
But there is one another question: do a classical lightmeter, that is designed for 50 m.m. lens can be used for folding cameras?

I know of no camera that will allow you to take multiple formats on one roll of film, you must insert a frame mask into the camera to use the smaller of the two formats, you must remove the film to remove said mask. Also a dual format folding camera will have two red windows, the numbers for the format you are shooting are printed on the 120 backing paper and are at different heights for different formats. So even if you used say both the 6x4.5 and 6x6 windows you would likely get over lapping frames and your frames would all be the size of the frame mask installed in the camera.

You can use a laser rangefinder to find distance or if you know the length of your stride you can step off the distance until you get good enough to accurately estimate distance.

A handheld lightmeter is not designed for a specific focal length of lens, any accurate handheld lightmeter will work with any folding camera you happen to decide to use.

 

[nokia2010]

I will sacrifice 3 images of a roll film to see who the swhitch from 6 x 9 tot 6 x 6 and back to 6 x 9 works.

Rising and lowering the lens on a folding camera with no tilt can help you corrcect the perspective?

 

[Donald Qualls]

I will sacrifice 3 images of a roll film to see who the swhitch from 6 x 9 tot 6 x 6 and back to 6 x 9 works.

Rising and lowering the lens on a folding camera with no tilt can help you corrcect the perspective?

If you have a 6x9 folder with a switch for 6x6 and 6x9, it probably moves a mask inside the viewfinder to make it easier to compose for the format your camera is set for. Many of these cameras had a removable masks for either 6x6 or 6x4.5; those often had some means of masking the viewfinder as well (this also serves as a reminder which red window to use in advancing film). I'm not aware of any folding cameras that can change the mask format in mid-roll (there was a 35mm SLR that could switch from full frame to half frame between frames, but that was only one single camera model as far as I'm aware; there were also several 35mm point-and-shoot style cameras that could mask the top and bottom of the frame for "panoramic" aspect ratio, on a per-frame basis).

Front rise and fall are used to control perspective for upward images (for architecture, especially) to avoid converging verticals, but I'm not aware of any roll film folders that have had this feature. It was present on most plate cameras, some of which (in 6x9) could mount a roll film holder and be nearly as compact as a dedicated roll film folding camera. A 6x9 Kawee Camera (aka Patent Etui) with a Rada roll back mounted is only about half an inch thicker than a contemporary Zeiss or Voigtlander 6x9 -- but that camera was even thinner with a plate back.

 

[Helge]

Sounds like you just need a pretty standard folder.

My advice is to forget rangefinder equipped cameras.
You pay more and you get get a smaller herd from which to chose the best one.

Condition of the lens and body is far, far more important than a rangefinder.

Rangefinders more often than not need cleaning and adjustment. Something that is far easier and less risky to do on an external one.

Also, don’t shun triplets lenses.
In fact, a triplet can be preferable for a number of reasons.

For architecture you will be shooting in daylight (at night you’ll need a tripod regardless of the camera with medium format), which means you’ll be stopping down.
This means you’ll have a very easy time setting focus and the lens type is going to matter very little.

Steer clear of pre war folders (1920 - 45). While there are some very good ones among them, they are mostly more flimsily build, and have seen extra decades of heavy use (most folders where put on emeritus pensions in the 60s) and they have no coating, weird or no flash sync, and worst of all the glass used for the lenses sometimes age poorly.
Many of the post war folders use lanthanum glass for some or all of the elements. This means better lenses, especially with simple ones, and glass that is unaffected by time.

The balsam (glue) used to hold Tessar type lenses together also was less mature pre war.

If your country is anything like mine you can feed pigs with Nettars and Isolettes.
They sold well for a reason.
They provide exceptional bang for the buck.

The Nettars if they have been taken care of, is basically a pick up and use camera today.
At most the shutter needs a look at.

The Isolettes almost all of them need a bellows change and a cleaning of the ceased helicoid. But they are worth it. They are very well made. And very easy to load.

Go for 6x6 and 6x4.5 cameras.
6x9 is OK and has it’s place. But, you very quickly get through the film. It has slower lenses with more vignetting and it’s harder to keep the film flat in the larger film gate.

 

[eli griggs]

Nice camera, but try to find one in Romania. And if you do find, the price will be very big, like for the stars.

That's why we have the internet, to reach out and obtain what we need.

I bought almost a dozen Soviet cameras from the FSU, plus filters and other needs, with little effort, only needing a bit of patience for the sometime fast, sometime slow, postal processing.

Here in this multi-forum, your as likely to find what you need, as well.

As long as you have access to the internet, the money, and a deliverable address that is valid, you're Golden.

Welcome to the Photrio.com site.

Eli

 

[eli griggs]

Assuming (a dangerous practice) that you have a darkroom and the ability to print 6 x 6 cm, on up to 6 x 9 cm, I'll make the round about suggestion that you first find the film format you want to print, based on shooting you can do with toy cameras, or old, basic consumer cameras, from the 40s - 1970 or so, that used one of the formats you want, in each of the sizes you think you want to explore.

After you've shot a few rolls in each, developed them and prints in hand, you can decide four yourself, which is first for you.

Alternatively, and in my mind, a possibly better option is to find a good used "Zero Image" pinhole camera, the one that allows you to shoot 6 x 4.5cm through 6 x 9cm images, and loading for one format at a time, take it out and shoot the full range.

You can no change format in the middle of a roll, but it will give you the ability to see, again, which format you like working with best, from image taking, to developing tank to final print.

I suggest this because I have both old cameras fought from thrift stores, including they types I first mentioned, to a Beautiful Zero Image wooden camera, which I bought here from another member, and upon reflection, had I no the many years of photographic experience that I do have, this might be the way, (if I had though or knew of it) that I would try to discover what fits my mind's eye, best.

Please note you do no need the fanciest pinhole of that line, or any line, and may even know a craftsman/woman that can build you excellent wooden pinholes as you need them.

By the way, a good pinhole camera is never a loss, unless you do no use it, nor is a toy camera or old consumer cameras which I mentioned above, which can be used for unique projects, etc.

What ever you do, Good Luck.

 

[Mike Lopez]

I know of no camera that will allow you to take multiple formats on one roll of film, you must insert a frame mask into the camera to use the smaller of the two formats, you must remove the film to remove said mask.

Check out the Fuji GF670. No longer in production, but plenty of stuff online about it.

 

[eli griggs]

I forgot to mention above, pinholes like this do no have timed shutters, and the Zero Image for 120 film pinhole is set to a 40mm focal length, so you'll need a good cable release (pneumatic and bulb is my favorite) and I suggest a steady tripod, weighted in use, (sandbags or lead shot) as well as a good second timer or stop watch function, to make exposures with.

You'd still need all that to use with other cameras, including those with "B" or "T" settings, for slower that 1/30th second, so these are no additional costs.

You'll also need to know the reciprocity charts for each film, but I suggest only one b&w film for the first 100 Images, or so, and a set of yellow, orange, and red filters, as well as a uv, skylight, neutral density 10x and polarizer.

The filters above can make remarkable images out of the Ordinary, but you need to know what their use is for colour correction with b&w, and giving you enough of what you need in related areas.

Eli

 

[eli griggs]

I forgot to mention above, pinholes like this do no have timed shutters, and the Zero Image for 120 film pinhole is set to a 40mm focal length, so you'll need a good cable release (pneumatic and bulb is my favorite) and I suggest a steady tripod, weighted in use, (sandbags or lead shot) as well as a good second timer or stop watch function, to make exposures with.

You'd still need all that to use with other cameras, including those with "B" or "T" settings, for slower that 1/30th second, so these are no additional costs.

You'll also need to know the reciprocity charts for each film, but I suggest only one b&w film for the first 100 Images, or so, and a set of yellow, orange, and red filters, as well as a uv, skylight, neutral density 10x and polarizer.

The filters above can make remarkable images out of the Ordinary, but you need to know what their use is for colour correction with b&w, and giving you enough of what you need in related areas.

For example, ask others here about using red and pol filers to simulate night shots, orange to bring out dramatic skies with pan films, cutting out glare with pol, what a green 11 will do for men's, portraits, yellow-green for women and kids, and yellows for day to day shooting.

Cheers.

 

[Maris]

A horseman 985 camera with a selection of rangefinder coupled lenses will do nearly everything the OP wants. Adding a 4x5 expansion back and a Sinar Zoom multiformat roll film holder extends the versatility even further. Affordable? Available? Only for lottery winners.

 

[Mike Lopez]

Check out the Fuji GF670. No longer in production, but plenty of stuff online about it.

I take this back. I just dug up an old review of this camera, and the switch between formats must be made with the camera back open. My bad. I guess I had the versatility of the Xpan in mind, which can switch back and forth throughout a roll ad nauseum. But the GF670 does offer two formats right out of the box...

 

[MattKing]

There is a Linhof roll film back for 4x5 cameras that allows you to switch formats - I believe mid-roll - but I've only seen someone else use one.
Someone I greatly miss - a good friend, who passed away just over a year ago. Dennis had the best gadgets!

 

[Kyle M.]

I will sacrifice 3 images of a roll film to see who the swhitch from 6 x 9 tot 6 x 6 and back to 6 x 9 works.

Rising and lowering the lens on a folding camera with no tilt can help you corrcect the perspective?

I don't see how this would even be possible. You would have to remove the film from the camera to remove or insert the frame mask, either exposing it to light. and ruining it. Or advancing the film all the way onto the take up spool, remove or insert the frame mask, roll the film back onto another spool in the dark so it could be loaded correctly. Then advance to where you left off.

 

[Dan Fromm]

There is a Linhof roll film back for 4x5 cameras that allows you to switch formats - I believe mid-roll - but I've only seen someone else use one.
Someone I greatly miss - a good friend, who passed away just over a year ago. Dennis had the best gadgets!

Are you sure? Sinar is more likely. And far out of the OP's price range.

 

[MattKing]

Are you sure? Sinar is more likely. And far out of the OP's price range.

You may very well be correct - I was probably fooled because Dennis used it on a Linhof camera.

 

[grat]

The "Gilde 66-17" panoramic camera can switch between image formats in a single roll. The price is somewhat eye-watering-- more than the average medium format digital back (and there's an adapter for those, too).

If I recall, the dark slide *is* the film mask, and slides in from each side.

Also has tilt/shift, and some other nice innovations, including a stereo lens assembly for 3D photos.

 

[markjwyatt]

Best one I can think of that meets all your requirements is a 2 1//4 x 3 1/4 Speed Graphic with 6x9 back. Folds, bellows, front tilt, flash synch, change lenses.

 

[Alex Varas]

The ICA Ideal (9x12 and 10x15), Voigtlander Bergueil (9x12) and few Certo Certrotrop (6x9) have bayonet for changing the lens.
Normally these cameras have wire finder and distance marks for one of the lenses and you can make another distance marks for the second lens but the difference between both lenses is no so big for just walking some steps forward or backwards to the the frame you want.
Lenses for 10x15 there were 16,5cm and 18cm (you can try to mount 13,5cm).
Lenses for 9x12 were either 15cm and 13,5cm, bigger lenses wont fit, smaller won’t cover.
Lenses for 6x9 were usually 12cm and 10,5cm.
Except for the 10x15cm cameras, there are adapters for 120film and I have shot handheld with them, infinity and close range, obviously easier for landscape. As said, shooting handheld these cameras there is no point for movements, following this thought the best and maybe only option is Plaubel Makina IIS and ahead with 3 different lenses, 7,8cm, 10cm and 21cm.

I have shot with all cameras above, if you want portable you choose Makina, you can have wide, normal and tele-lens l, different backs for different film in the space I can have the 10x15 plus one homemade 120film holder, total weight 2.5kg, not good for handhandle.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

There are cameras that can take 2 formats, like 6 x 4,5 and 6 x 6 or 6 x 6 and 6 x 9. But I wonder if on a film you can take 2 formats.
I know about that small window.
Also I know that most of them don't have a rangefinder installed. I must use a telemeter (forgot how is called in English) for close photography. "Mockba" ("Moscva") 4 and 5 are rangefinders and can use both 6 x 6 and 6 x 9.
But there is one another question: do a classical lightmeter, that is designed for 50 m.m. lens can be used for folding cameras?

Yes,tht lightmeter can be used forfolding MF cameras as well.