Question about medium format folding cameras

nokia2010 · Jan 29, 2021

Hello. This is my first post here, so I hope I post in the right area.
I'm more intrested in medium format photography, because it's chepaer. Medium format means 120 or maybe 127 format. So I'm curios from all the '30'-'50's medium format film cameras, which where the best and the most relaible. And had more options. I intened to use this format for taking pictures from buldings - so some kind of city landscapes, so short (fast) exposure times isn't a must... I would like to use one at shows, but that's a distant desire.
There where any folding medium format cameras that allow lens changing?
And there where ever made one with sync for Xenon (electronic) flash?

Plus: there where ever made medium format folding cameras that allowed you to tilt the lenses in order to correct the angle of the image - let's say to get a square form a square form, not a trapezoid.

The last one is more hard. Well, I've seen a subject about it, but it only compared two cameras. Let's say you have cameras of different brands (like "A.G.F.A." and "Kodak") and the front of the camera it's the same size at both companies. Can you take the front of one of the cameras and put it onto the other camera. Or do this with the lens?

Sirius Glass · Jan 29, 2021

I had a Certo Super Dolly circa 1903's, 120 film, with a very sharp Zeiss lens. A wonderful folding camera. No range finder.

wyofilm · Jan 29, 2021

nokia2010 said:
Hello. This is my first post here, so I hope I post in the right area.
I'm more intrested in medium format photography, because it's chepaer. Medium format means 120 or maybe 127 format. So I'm curios from all the '30'-'50's medium format film cameras, which where the best and the most relaible. And had more options. I intened to use this format for taking pictures from buldings - so some kind of city landscapes, so short (fast) exposure times isn't a must... I would like to use one at shows, but that's a distant desire.
There where any folding medium format cameras that allow lens changing?
And there where ever made one with sync for Xenon (electronic) flash?

Plus: there where ever made medium format folding cameras that allowed you to tilt the lenses in order to correct the angle of the image - let's say to get a square form a square form, not a trapezoid.

The last one is more hard. Well, I've seen a subject about it, but it only compared two cameras. Let's say you have cameras of different brands (like "A.G.F.A." and "Kodak") and the front of the camera it's the same size at both companies. Can you take the front of one of the cameras and put it onto the other camera. Or do this with the lens?

I can't even imagine the number of folding cameras manufactured. I have an Agfa Isolette II and a Voightlander Bessa II. The first is 6x6 120 format and is not a rangefinder - though version of this series had a rangefinder. My the model II just view finder - thus guess focus. The second camera I have is a 6x9 120 format and is a rangefinder. Both are handy, especially the agfa because of its smaller size.

I would guess that 6x6 formats are the most common version, though 6x4.5 and 6x9 exist. The first thing you want to decide on are format and whether or not rangefinding is important. Making these two choices will GREATLY reduce the number of possible folder to look at. Another feature to look at is film advance. Is it measured or do you have to look through a red window to read film location.

I love folders. Good Luck!

grat · Jan 29, 2021

There are many "compact" folding cameras, with various functions, all of which shoot 120 or 620 film (620 is like 120, but different spools, and a 620 camera was specifically designed to *not* take 120 film, because Kodak wanted an advantage in the market).

For movements and swappable lenses, you're looking at a technical/press camera such as a Busch, Graflex, Horseman-- those are typically sheet cameras in the 6x9 (cm) or 2.25x3.25 (inch) format, but 120 film roll backs are available for most of them.

Most lenses for both the pocket folding cameras, and the technical cameras, will have a pc sync port for X mode flash synchronization.

nokia2010 · Jan 29, 2021

There are cameras that can take 2 formats, like 6 x 4,5 and 6 x 6 or 6 x 6 and 6 x 9. But I wonder if on a film you can take 2 formats.
I know about that small window.
Also I know that most of them don't have a rangefinder installed. I must use a telemeter (forgot how is called in English) for close photography. "Mockba" ("Moscva") 4 and 5 are rangefinders and can use both 6 x 6 and 6 x 9.
But there is one another question: do a classical lightmeter, that is designed for 50 m.m. lens can be used for folding cameras?

Ares_der_Ruderer · Jan 31, 2021

One of the most if not most modular Medium Format System Camera up to the 60s was the Plaubel Makina II/III. It had 4 lenses, 2 "normal" 100mms, 1 "wide angle" 73mm and 1 "Tele" 190mm, as well as interchangable backs that accepted plates, filmpacks, and 120 roll film of 6x4.5,6x6 and 6x9 format, as well as even 35mm. It was also a folder and had an integrated rangefinder which was coupled to the 100mm lenses, and semi coupled to the Tele and Wide lenses. Speeds from 1sec to 1/200th for the normal models, 1 to 1/400th for the last III"R" model, as well as T and B, and synched flash (which requires either a special adaptor or getting lucky enough to find a modified camera). Today they are rather expensive and rare, but still in my opinion wonderful cameras.

Here is my example:

nokia2010 · Jan 31, 2021

Nice camera, but try to find one in Romania. And if you do find, the price will be very big, like for the stars.

Ares_der_Ruderer · Jan 31, 2021

nokia2010 said:
Nice camera, but try to find one in Romania. And if you do find, the price will be very big, like for the stars.

I am from Greece, so I understand haha. Ebay is your friend in this case. The going rate for just the camera is usually 300-400 euros, but if you wait long enough one could possibly be scooped up for say 250. For a camera of such quality and modularity I find the price to be justified all things considered. If you're after something cheap, the usual suspects like the Zeiss Ikons or other German Folders go for 10-20 euros on ebay, so for about 100 euros you could easily get one in each Medium Format, and in a variety of Focal Lengths.

narsuitus · Jan 31, 2021

When I need a medium format camera with an interchangeable feature and lens and film plane movement, I use a 120 roll film holder on my 4x5 inch view camera.

When I need a simple inexpensive medium format folding camera, I use one of the following:

6x6cm Ansco Standard Speedex with 90mm f/4.5 lens

6x9cm Ansco Viking 105mm f/6.3 lens

nokia2010 · Jan 31, 2021

Ares_der_Ruderer said:
I am from Greece, so I understand haha. Ebay is your friend in this case. The going rate for just the camera is usually 300-400 euros, but if you wait long enough one could possibly be scooped up for say 250. For a camera of such quality and modularity I find the price to be justified all things considered. If you're after something cheap, the usual suspects like the Zeiss Ikons or other German Folders go for 10-20 euros on ebay, so for about 100 euros you could easily get one in each Medium Format, and in a variety of Focal Lengths.

In Romania you can find medium format folding cameras. I'm hunting for the people who don't sell them for more then 40-50 Euros.
I want local buy because I want to test them.
Here is a site where you can see details about old "I.C.A." cameras: https://sites.google.com/site/fromthefocalplanetoinfinity/ica

Dan Fromm · Jan 31, 2021

nokia2010 said:
In Romania you can find medium format folding cameras. I'm hunting for the people who don't sell them for more then 40-50 Euros.
I want local buy because I want to test them.
Here is a site where you can see details about old "I.C.A." cameras: https://sites.google.com/site/fromthefocalplanetoinfinity/ica

Hmm. Interchangeable lenses. Medium format. Folding camera that fits in a pocket. No more than 40-50 Euros. Another example of the null set. Good luck, young person.

xya · Feb 1, 2021

as I had quite some of these cameras, I made a website about the folders I tested. you will find them here http://www.120folder.com/ . if you really want tilt/shift, there is the mamiya 23 and the graflex, some information about these is here http://www.oddcameras.com/

nokia2010 · Feb 1, 2021

The "Mamyia" 23 have interchangeble lens?

Dan Fromm said:
Hmm. Interchangeable lenses. Medium format. Folding camera that fits in a pocket. No more than 40-50 Euros. Another example of the null set. Good luck, young person.

If you wish me luck for intercangeble lens cameras, I will look for one

Donald Qualls · Feb 1, 2021

The Zeiss/Ica Ideal in 9x12 cm has bayonet mounted lenses, but the only lenses I've seen on these are 13.5 cm and 15 cm (both f/4.5), which have different rear cell and shutter sizes, and different bayonet plates (hence mounts on the camera). Not exactly pocketable, unless you have really big pockets, but pretty compact for large format.

Dan Fromm · Feb 1, 2021

nokia2010 said:
The "Mamyia" 23 have interchangeble lens?

If you wish me luck for intercangeble lens cameras, I will look for one

Cameras in the Mamiya Press family -- Press, Super 23, Universal -- all have interchangeable lenses. No tilt/shift, not accessory bellows. I just directed you to a set of links on the US large format forum. It has no links to information on this family, but a Google search on "Mamiya Press" will find a Wikipedia article on the family. Good luck. I doubt you'll find one that will fit your budget. Save your lei until you've accumulated enough to be able to get the camera you want.

choiliefan · Feb 1, 2021

Z-I Super Ikonta III or IV with 3.5 Tessar lens has everything you want except interchangeable lenses.

Wayne · Feb 1, 2021

choiliefan said:
Z-I Super Ikonta III or IV with 3.5 Tessar lens has everything you want except interchangeable lenses.

I dont want to derail this thread only divert it for a sec- since you can replace bellows and (presumably?) remove shutters for servicing couldn't you also "technically" change lenses, though not in the easy on the fly way the OP means it? Just curious cause I sometimes see decent lenses on bad folders and vice versa...although the former or more rare

nokia2010 · Feb 1, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
The Zeiss/Ica Ideal in 9x12 cm has bayonet mounted lenses, but the only lenses I've seen on these are 13.5 cm and 15 cm (both f/4.5), which have different rear cell and shutter sizes, and different bayonet plates (hence mounts on the camera). Not exactly pocketable, unless you have really big pockets, but pretty compact for large format.

I wonder if this are 'Ideal' or have interchageble lens.

Donald Qualls · Feb 1, 2021

nokia2010 said:
I wonder if this are 'Ideal' or have interchageble lens.

Those are roll film cameras of some stripe. The Ideals are plate cameras. The body is a square-cornered box, with the bed on the front and the ground glass, plate/film holder, or other accessory on the back. Further, those don't have the bayonet plate on the back of the shutter or its latch on the front standard.

xya · Feb 1, 2021

Dan Fromm said:
Cameras in the Mamiya Press family -- Press, Super 23, Universal -- all have interchangeable lenses. No tilt/shift, not accessory bellows. I just directed you to a set of links on the US large format forum. It has no links to information on this family, but a Google search on "Mamiya Press" will find a Wikipedia article on the family. Good luck. I doubt you'll find one that will fit your budget. Save your lei until you've accumulated enough to be able to get the camera you want.

only the universal has a fixed back. the press/23 have a bellow between the back and the body that can be tilted. it only works with the 90mm and 100mm lens that can be put in recessed position to compensate the extension.

Dan Fromm · Feb 1, 2021

xya said:
only the universal has a fixed back. the press/23 have a bellow between the back and the body that can be tilted. it only works with the 90mm and 100mm lens that can be put in recessed position to compensate the extension.

True. I've played with, not used seriously, a 6x9 Linhof with the same feature, found it useless. What the OP wants is 6x9 view or technical camera that fits in a pocket. AFAIK, another example of the null set.

nokia2010 · Feb 1, 2021

I've seen that some folding cameras had and up and down adjusment for the "plate" with the lens assembly? For what it was used?
Some very old ones dind't had a red window for rollfilms, they had just an opened space. It's anyway you can covered that with some transparent material, in order not to ruin the film?

Dan Fromm · Feb 1, 2021

Front rise. A decentering movement used to photograph tall objects while keeping the camera level. Eliminates converging verticals, which are caused by tilting the camera to capture the higher parts of tall subjects such as church steeples, campaniles, etc.

nokia2010 · Feb 1, 2021

So a larger format folding camera that had that up-down adjusment could make some perespective correction - not much as like as a tilting camera, but some could be done?
I was looking for "I.C.A." Ideal. No sound turned on. At one minute, hmm, looks like a street in Bucharest. I turned to see more image, anoter old one from Bucharest (some bulding demolished by the Horrbile Couple also appear). Took a look onto the chanel, which after I got back to the video, Romanian language... what about that, a review in Romanian.
Probably 'Ideal' is too expensive for my wishes right now, so I will another more common camera, but for the future, since it can use 9 x 12 film and cand have adapted an 6 x 9 back (curiosity, with a 9 x 12 camera can you adapt a 35 m.m. or 127 back to take wider pictures?) it might be an option.

Sirius Glass · Feb 1, 2021

nokia2010 said:
So a larger format folding camera that had that up-down adjusment could make some perespective correction - not much as like as a tilting camera, but some could be done?
I was looking for "I.C.A." Ideal. No sound turned on. At one minute, hmm, looks like a street in Bucharest. I turned to see more image, anoter old one from Bucharest (some bulding demolished by the Horrbile Couple also appear). Took a look onto the chanel, which after I got back to the video, Romanian language... what about that, a review in Romanian.
Probably 'Ideal' is too expensive for my wishes right now, so I will another more common camera, but for the future, since it can use 9 x 12 film and cand have adapted an 6 x 9 back (curiosity, with a 9 x 12 camera can you adapt a 35 m.m. or 127 back to take wider pictures?) it might be an option.

Any camera with movements [tilt, shift] cannot use those features hand held; a tripod is required. A Pacemaker Speed Graphic or Crown Graphic can be shot hand held OR on a tripod with limited movements.

Question about medium format folding cameras

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