Printing color negatives on blackand white paper

pentaxuser · Sep 10, 2018

Yes I did much the same as you ,adelorenzo but my Y and M combination was simply to increase the grade as I would have done with a B&W negative.

Cruzingoose appeared to be tailor-making his filtration to eliminate certain colours present in the colour negative and make others colours present more snappy rather than increase contrast as you would with a print from a B&W negative. My prints were not bad but probably did lack a bit of "snap" to use a technical term . I am just wondering if anyone else has attempted this as a better way to render C41 negatives better on B&W

pentaxuser

Photo Engineer · Sep 10, 2018

Unfortunately, multigrade papers vary unexpectedly based on the colors in the film causing the contrast changes designed into the paper which vary based on color.

This can give very strange results.

PE

grainyvision · Sep 11, 2018

Seeing this thread made me want to try it. The best result I ended up with is below. The trees and such definitely end up looking like IR film, and the contrast of certain colors is pretty strange. Overall I like the result, but for me it wouldn't work for everything. I think it'd be really interesting for something that should carry a feeling of being spooky or mysterious.

The negative is Portra 400 in 120 format. I cropped pretty heavily, maybe 20-30%. I printed it 8x10 on Ilford Pearl RC multigrade, at grade 3 for 40s and f/8. I also did some dodging on the ground portion so that the city background was more clear while not making the shadows pitch black. I did a lot of tests at different settings, but I found at least with my enlarger, going to grade 4 or 5 makes the result way too contrasty. It was pretty surprising to me since I always heard that printing like this will result in flat low contrast prints and requires really long exposure times. My enlarger is particularly bright since I modified a "feature" of it, but the exposure isn't crazy longer, especially with how dim it is at full grade 5 filtration since the orange and blue cancel out. A similar B/W negative print would've taken around 10-20s.

adelorenzo · Sep 11, 2018

I have uploaded an album with a few examples of prints I've made from color negatives. Note that these are just quick digital photographs of the actual prints so they aren't the best reproduction.

B&W Prints from Color Negatives

None of these prints required any weird contrast or filtering or anything. IIRC almost all of them do have some split grade dodging and burning involved.

pentaxuser · Sep 11, 2018

Looks pretty good, earlz. It is years since I tried to print B&W from a colour neg. I was printing with a colour head then and my memory might be hazy but I don't think I had to use more than the equivalent of grade 4. I should probably try the same neg with Ilford filters 3.5 - 5 to see if I can improve on the print.

I may have assumed that my original print lacked contrast because that was what I was led to believe would be the case from reading various posts and what for want of a better phrase was the general consensus on making a B&W print from a colour negative.

Yes, there may be "problems" with this process and I may be easily pleased but I do wonder if we tend to exaggerate the problems at the expense of the success.

We are now in an era where digitally we can rescue colour negatives and not bother with what I feel may be the only analogue solution for ageing colour negs which is to print them in B&W but if you are solely analogue then B&W printing from a colour neg represents a good solution and well worth trying

pentaxuser

luisrq · Sep 12, 2018

adelorenzo said:
I realize that this is an old thread but I have been printing my color negatives on B&W multigrade paper for the past couple of years with excellent results. It's not really any different than printing from a B&W negative IMHO. I use my color head and typically dial in between 0-70 M for my base exposures, so usually between a grade 2 and 3.5. Occasionally I have to add more or less contrast for dodging and burning.

I am expecting a roll of film from First Call any day now with a series of images taken on a digital camera. I am curious to see how they turn out.

Please share with us your opinion when you receive it. Thank you!
Concerning print a B&W picture from Color Negative Film I have succesfully experienced it using Ilford FB Variable Contrast paper on a Besseler enlarger setting Magenta at 200 and Yellow to 0, this correspond to Grade 4.5 or 5, the developer was a paper developer based on the formula PQ, not a great gradation, maybe a softer developer would be better.

luisrq · Sep 12, 2018

jnanian said:
hi Lluis
you could do exactly that
make a film internegative, ( or paper if you don't mind the blue blind<?> tonal range )
while i have done it and gotten great results,
the film recorder situation at first call sounds good but who knows after a while it adds up
i hate to say this but im more for the hybrid print route these days ( instead of a hybrid negative )
( sorry, i'm broke )
i opt to have a print made at my local lab .. just scan the film and desaturate it and send her the file
instead of the film recorder and she makes me a print on fuji paper. ... OR
i send the file as a negative to my local xerox / copy shop and they either make me a paper internegative
( that i can wax or not wax and contact print old school ) or an overhead transparency negative to make a print
either in the dark room or in the sun ... around here where i live paper xerox negatives cost like 20¢ each and
a overhead transparency ) upto 8x10 ( is 75¢ .. super cheap and lots of fun..
i can even make my sun prints look like litchenstein made them )1/2 tone dots( if i want

have fun !
john

Thank you! I've already have an experience doing Digital Negatives and this is not my favorite process.... I think there are several Pro-Labs making B&W Gelatine Silver Prints (FB paper) from Digital files, I think ILFORD is offering this service in U.K., as far as I know this service is with Digital enlargers as the De Vere 504 DS. I've never tried, neither I don't know which Labs are offering these services..... Any suggestions / experiences? . Thanks!

grainyvision · Sep 12, 2018

I have access to a pro darkroom/lab that has all the machinery required for printing digital negatives, but according to the owners it's an incredibly finicky process requiring a lot of back and forth to get a good negative. I'd have doubts about requiring the digital negatives to be shipped since there is such a long turn around time if there is any mistake or problem. Apparently properly made ones are super easy to print, but making a proper one is difficult to do consistently.

Also, for printing slides you can use direct positive paper. I did some slide contact prints and they looked alright, but it was a very contrasty paper. I also hate the finish of it. It's a thicker paper that curls and has that crinkly glossy finish that's near impossible to make look perfect... and it's ridiculously expensive, $80 for 25 sheets of 8x10. I use it for paper photography experiments rather than printing.

luisrq · Sep 12, 2018

I agree both subjects you say. I've do an exhibition in the Rangefinder Gallery at Tamarkin Camera in Chicago showing 30 Gelatin Silver Prints, 50% from film, 50% from digital files coverted by the Digital Negative process. I can say that almost on all 15 digital negatives I did made several times usually 2-3 times, sometimes 4 times the same Digital Negative, I've adquired a big experience and it is very difficult, simply because the reaction of the curves expected on film are not the same with digital negatives. Recently I have tried with a friend he works with piezography and the special QTR Driver provided for doing Digital Negative and I must to say that result are much better but not 100% perfect, it is needed to do further adjustments.

I had examinated the possibility to work with direct positive paper, but I never tried because I was supposing I will encounter the problems you mention. I think that for doing film negatives from a color slide it will be a quite good process duplicate the slides on B&W film.

Actually I'm in a new way, there are in the market some offers for transfer Digital Files to B&W film. Also there are on the market several services using Digital Enlargers, but I've never saw a test.

Photo Engineer · Sep 12, 2018

I have had no problem generation digital negatives from color or B&W reversal or positive images.

PE

adelorenzo · Sep 13, 2018

Here is an example of one of my prints. The color images is a scan of the Porta 400 negative. The black and white is a digital photo of the darkroom print.

Stelfox Mountain, Keele River, NWT

adelorenzo
Sep 11, 2018
3

The print is on Ilford Classic glossy paper, toned with selenium and sepia sulfide. Looking at my notes I printed with 50M (Grade 3). My base exposure was 25 seconds at f/8 for a 12x16 print. I burned the mountain and sky in at the same contrast grade and then did some additional burning at 170M (Grade 5).

In my experience the common wisdom found on the Internet about lack of contrast and really long exposure times are not true. At least with my negatives they print more or less like any other negative.

adelorenzo · Sep 13, 2018

Also this is from the Ilford darkroom manual:

"...provided that a blue/green sensitive paper such as Multigrade is used, the tone rendering will be much the same as if the subject had been photographed with an orthochromatic film or plate.
All colour negatives are developed to the same gamma and in the same developer formulation (C-41), so a negative of a typical outdoor subject usually prints quite well on glossy surfaced multigrade paper, perhaps with the aid of a pale magenta filter to increase contrast slightly. The exposure required is not very different from what would be expected when printing a black-and-white negative to a similar degree of enlargement.

adelorenzo · Sep 13, 2018

@luisrq When printing from color slides the Ilford darkroom manual suggests making an enlarged paper negative and then contact printing it. Have you tried this?

grainyvision · Sep 13, 2018

adelorenzo said:
@luisrq When printing from color slides the Ilford darkroom manual suggests making an enlarged paper negative and then contact printing it. Have you tried this?

How does one do this? The paper seems very opaque, wouldn't it require extremely long exposures?

Mainecoonmaniac · Sep 13, 2018

adelorenzo said:
@luisrq When printing from color slides the Ilford darkroom manual suggests making an enlarged paper negative and then contact printing it. Have you tried this?

Making a paper negative doesn't solve the issue that BW paper is orthochromatic. What makes better sense is if you have access to 4x5 film, make an internegative. You do this by enlarging on panochromatic 4x5 film if your trying to print a slide. IMHO, all this duping will give less than optimum results. I would just scan the neg or slide and make an digital inkjet neg. With a digital scan, you can bring it into Photoshop and do tonal manipulations as well as sharpening.

gsherman9999 · Apr 25, 2019

To follow up on this thread, which I read months ago when considering printing color negs on b&w paper, I recently did so and was able to get very nice results using a dichroic filter head setting of 50M (Besseler). Paper was Multigrade RC Pearl. Film was Kodak Gold 200 shot 25 years or so ago. I thought the b&w came out looking better than the original color print, which was rather unexpected, but what some have already noted here.

DREW WILEY · Apr 25, 2019

I recently did this via the double-negative method. I took a 6x9 Ektar negative and enlarged it very precisely through a deep green color separation filter onto 8x10 TMax 100 film, then developed this to medium contrast. Then, since I wanted an overall boost in contrast, contact printed the TMax interpositive onto Ortho Litho film developed in HC-110. The actual print came out wonderfully. I printed it on 16X20 MGWT. But in hindsight, it would have been easier to control development using TechPan film for the second step, which I also have in stock in 8X10 sheets. Of course, I could have used TMax for both steps, but was trying to save a little money.

thornhill · Apr 25, 2019

analogsnob said:
I have in the past taken Kodak Supra paper and processed in Dektol 2minuits or so followed by a non hardening fix and gotten surprisingly ok prints. They were somewhat flat but the tone rendering was correct. Perhaps try Ultra.

You of coarse have to work without safelight.

That sounds interesting. I've got some out-of-date Supra I could try. Maybe with a daylight tank and a motorbase.

mshchem · Apr 26, 2019

The old Kodak Panalure was panchromatic paper. Ilford makes a panchromatic paper, intended for RGB laser exposure. Panalure prints looked normal.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/870123-REG/Ilford_1170883_Galerie_Digital_Silver_Black.html

CMoore · Apr 26, 2019

This guy printed some B&W paper with a color neg.....
He also did some other weird stuff.

pentaxuser · Apr 27, 2019

gsherman9999 said:
To follow up on this thread, which I read months ago when considering printing color negs on b&w paper, I recently did so and was able to get very nice results using a dichroic filter head setting of 50M (Besseler). Paper was Multigrade RC Pearl. .

Based on what Ilford says is the correct filtration for various grades what you used was the equivalent of grade 3.5 which tends to suggest that nowhere near the max grade is required for colour negs on B&W paper which certainly seems in keeping with my experience as stated in #31

pentaxuser

RalphLambrecht · Apr 27, 2019

WGibsonPhotography said:
How is the best way to print color negatives on to black and white paper? I did an internet search and found as many different ways as people giving advice. If I remember correctly from my internet searching (stupid me closed out of the site with this info), I need to use the school's color enlarger and filter out red since black and white paper isnt as sensitive to red, right?

*runs off to find more info on the internet*

don't expect miracles. Ijust doesn't work very well.

removed account4 · Apr 28, 2019

luisrq said:
Thank you! I've already have an experience doing Digital Negatives and this is not my favorite process.... I think there are several Pro-Labs making B&W Gelatine Silver Prints (FB paper) from Digital files, I think ILFORD is offering this service in U.K., as far as I know this service is with Digital enlargers as the De Vere 504 DS. I've never tried, neither I don't know which Labs are offering these services..... Any suggestions / experiences? . Thanks!

My local lab ( it is a mini lab ) does not print on silver gelatin paper, she uses fuji crystal archive or fancy paper ( cotton ) when she does pigment prints. Bob Carnie ( a poster here and master printer in Toronto ) prints on silver gelatin from a modern laser enlarger i think. He might be the kind of printer you are looking for to print your images. The way I do it is more by touch and feel and taste. I gave up on perfection years ago. Good luck with your printing !

John

pentaxuser · Apr 28, 2019

To back up what jnantz has said, my local mini-lab also prints on Fuji RA4 paper when asked to do B&W prints from colour negs and does a very good job

pentaxuser

DREW WILEY · Apr 28, 2019

I've been doing it via b&w film off and on for several decades; and it was routinely done in this manner before I was ever born. Very high quality results can be obtained. But just like anything else, you have to be willing to experiment to get the amount of exposure and development correct. With color negs (versus positive film images) you first make an interpositive on panchromatic film, then generate a printing negative from that. Very simply in principle, and it allows you far more flexibility in contrast that a panchromatic printing paper. But it can also obviously be via a scan and some kind of monochrome digital printing. I just happen to prefer the real deal, darkroom-style.

Printing color negatives on blackand white paper

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