Photo-flo, bad advice, and working through issues.

[Bill Burk]

At 1:1000... does the water sheet or form droplets on the base?

 

[Cholentpot]

I did a test and found that a few drops in 16 oz water is not enough. I now use a full mini syringe to 16 oz.

1:500 for reverse osmosis filtered water, probably 1:200 for tap water.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/a-few-drops-photoflo.158674/page-2#post-2062300

So looking at 1ml per tank roughly. I've also got a whizbang water softener/activated charcoal system that came with house. I think that may have affected my negatives somehow and forced me to relearn the way I was washing.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

I am constantly amazed that people have so much trouble with Photo Flo / wetting agents / drying marks / spots / etc.

The science is simple: get rid of the surface tension of the water and get rid of any dissolved solids left in your film's emulsion by whatever might be in your tap water.

That means: mix you wetting agent so that the surface tension of the water is definitely eliminated (i.e., according to instructions or possibly a bit weaker if you have great water quality) and mix it with distilled water so that any dissolved solids in the emulsion will leach out during the treatment in the wetting agent.

Time is a factor if you have hard water; you need to let the film soak enough to leach out dissolved minerals. Depending on your water's hardness, this can be up to a few minutes. I like about two minutes for my film. Note that the effect of the surfactant happens in just a few seconds; the extra time is for getting rid of dissolved minerals.

Mix and use your wetting agent one shot or one batch.

If you use plastic reels, take your film off the reel before treating it with the wetting agent. Metal reels aren't a problem as long as you rinse them well in warm water.

Squeegee carefully or not, as you prefer. I have good results squeegeeing both sheet and roll film between two very clean fingers.

Do hang your film at an angle so the run-off collects at a corner. Do blot the droplets that form on the corners of the film with a paper towel or a finger to keep residual wetting agent from building up there and leaving a drying mark.

I can't imagine how anyone can have anything but good results if they apply the above advice... Still baffled as to why so many have so many problems.

Best,

Doremus

 

[Wallendo]

I've recently moved and have a different water supply. My old method of getting clean negatives out of the wash have been met with failure. Streaks, spots, and all sorts of issues. I tried everything from hanging at a 45 angle, to squeegees. All with mixed results. I've finally found something that seems to work.

...

Just goes to show, advice I got and used successfully does not always transition.

It is amazing that a post like this documenting that changes in drying negatives need to be made with changing environments (which echoes my own experience) has led to innumerable posts in which zealots evangelize their own one size fits all solutions.

Every time I have moved, I have had to make changes in my routine based on water quality and humidity.

 

[Saganich]

I hang film first and use a fine stream squeeze bottle dousing with distilled or deionized water from top to bottom on both sides of the film. This was my replacement for photoflo, which I never could mix per instructions.

 

[GLS]

I have standardised on the following (after the usual Ilford method tap water wash cycles): a penultimate soak in deionised water for 2 minutes, then a final soak in 5% IPA in deionised water for one minute, then hang to dry without using a squeegee.

After this treatment the film is pristine without fail.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I empty the tank, rinse it thoroughly, pour in a half inch of distilled water, then add 2 drops LFN and one drop PF, then add more distilled water to level desired, then put reel back in and let soak maybe five minutes. Remove reel, unspool film, place Pace film hangers at each end, then see-saw the entire length of film into the tank, then hang to dry, no wiping, bottom half of half gallon milk jug placed below film to catch run-off I toss the LFN/PF mixture when done.

As for a spray bottle, I have done that when needed — it can be helpful if you really want to ensure the whole film strip is fully wetted, to ensure consistent draining.

Gee why not just follow the instructions for LFN instead of approximating. Your method leads to the "Why are my negatives streaked?" threads.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I am constantly amazed that people have so much trouble with Photo Flo / wetting agents / drying marks / spots / etc.

The science is simple: get rid of the surface tension of the water and get rid of any dissolved solids left in your film's emulsion by whatever might be in your tap water.

That means: mix you wetting agent so that the surface tension of the water is definitely eliminated (i.e., according to instructions or possibly a bit weaker if you have great water quality) and mix it with distilled water so that any dissolved solids in the emulsion will leach out during the treatment in the wetting agent.

Time is a factor if you have hard water; you need to let the film soak enough to leach out dissolved minerals. Depending on your water's hardness, this can be up to a few minutes. I like about two minutes for my film. Note that the effect of the surfactant happens in just a few seconds; the extra time is for getting rid of dissolved minerals.

Mix and use your wetting agent one shot or one batch.

If you use plastic reels, take your film off the reel before treating it with the wetting agent. Metal reels aren't a problem as long as you rinse them well in warm water.

Squeegee carefully or not, as you prefer. I have good results squeegeeing both sheet and roll film between two very clean fingers.

Do hang your film at an angle so the run-off collects at a corner. Do blot the droplets that form on the corners of the film with a paper towel or a finger to keep residual wetting agent from building up there and leaving a drying mark.

I can't imagine how anyone can have anything but good results if they apply the above advice... Still baffled as to why so many have so many problems.

Best,

Doremus

There he said it in the bold type. Follow the instructs, vary is necessary but not the slap dash "a little of that and some of the other" method.

 

[Cholentpot]

It is amazing that a post like this documenting that changes in drying negatives need to be made with changing environments (which echoes my own experience) has led to innumerable posts in which zealots evangelize their own one size fits all solutions.

Every time I have moved, I have had to make changes in my routine based on water quality and humidity.

Right.

Something that has worked for me for over 300 rolls failed when I moved. Simple as that. It took me a half dozen rolls to work out my problem. Getting clean negatives is not always the result of following instructions. Sometimes there's some trial and error.

 

[mshchem]

Gee why not just follow the instructions for LFN instead of approximating. Your method leads to the "Why are my negatives streaked?" threads.

LFN is great stuff. I think the "eyedropper bottle" is the key to prevent over dosing. I have one bottle of LFN and at least a dozen bottles of Photoflo that have been willed to me. I even have a 16 ounce brown glass bottle with a Kmart price sticker, 95 cents. I'm doomed to Photoflo for the rest of my life, I use the newest first but all these bottles are full never opened.
I suppose I could open a car wash, offering the "spotless" final rinse. .

Don't underestimate Drying time and temperature the reduction of surface tension allows water to drip off. A cool darkroom, letting film dry over a matter of a few hours gives the liquid time to run off.

 

[Brendan Quirk]

Having some years ago moved to an area of extreme hard water, I essentially recreated Doremus' advice independently. Do what he says. Especially the final distilled water and hanging by the corner. I have successfully removed some drying marks by rewashing as above.

I even had problems with paper - I now pass them briefly through a tray of distilled water before setting out to dry.

 

[chip j]

Anyone ever use the cheap Arista wetting agent?

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Photo-Flo diluted 1:1000 in the tank with tap water, inversion for 60 seconds, drain the water (and most of Photo-Flo but not all) from the tank, pour distilled water, inversion for 60 seconds, hang the film without wipe off. Never has an issue.

works for me too.

 

[Bill Burk]

Be sure to cut and sleeve your negatives promptly. If they hang too long flies will leave little spots on them.

Don’t ask me how I know

 

[btaylor]

Anyone ever use the cheap Arista wetting agent?

Yes. Works just like Photo Flo and LFN for me.

 

[Cholentpot]

Anyone ever use the cheap Arista wetting agent?

I used to use dish soap. Photo Flo is a luxury to me.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

I don't use anything anymore on 35mm negs. I gently wipe the base side with a Bounty paper towel or a KimWipe just to get the water off. If there isn't any water on the film, there won't be any water spots. For 120 film I use LFN. Never was very fond of PhotoFlo.

An alternative is to dunk the film in Isopropyl Alcohol. The purer the better.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Cholentpot,

One more thing. I noticed just now that you have a new-to-you water softening system. If it is an ion-exchange type of system, that could be part of your problem, since the softener basically replaces the calcium and magnesium ions in your hard water with sodium and/or potassium ions. There are still a lot of dissolved solids in water "softened" this way and you need to get rid of these before drying your film. When I lived and developed film in San Antonio, TX (a city that gets its water from wells drilled in the limestone below it, hence very hard water), I had to soak my film for five minutes or more in a rather generous amount of distilled water + Photo Flo to get negatives without salt deposits on them.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

 

[Cholentpot]

Cholentpot,

One more thing. I noticed just now that you have a new-to-you water softening system. If it is an ion-exchange type of system, that could be part of your problem, since the softener basically replaces the calcium and magnesium ions in your hard water with sodium and/or potassium ions. There are still a lot of dissolved solids in water "softened" this way and you need to get rid of these before drying your film. When I lived and developed film in San Antonio, TX (a city that gets its water from wells drilled in the limestone below it, hence very hard water), I had to soak my film for five minutes or more in a rather generous amount of distilled water + Photo Flo to get negatives without salt deposits on them.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

Rain Soft with a big 'ol salt bin. I'm not clear on what it exactly is. Also has an activated carbon tank and a separate little filter for a dedicated sink line.

So you're saying I should use that superduper filtered water from the dedicated line with photoflo and let sit for 5 min or so.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Rain Soft with a big 'ol salt bin. I'm not clear on what it exactly is. Also has an activated carbon tank and a separate little filter for a dedicated sink line.

So you're saying I should use that superduper filtered water from the dedicated line with photoflo and let sit for 5 min or so.

I'm saying you need to mix your PhotoFlo with distilled water. Filtered water can still contain dissolved solids; no filter removes anything dissolved, but those dissolved minerals will re-crystalize upon drying, leaving nasty deposits on your film. You need to remove them from the film's emulsion by soaking in water with nothing dissolved in it. Unless your "superduper filtered water" is Reverse Osmosis, it'll still contain all those dissolved salts that the softener introduces.

The soak time will be longer than the recommended time for the PhotoFlo; the surfactant effect happens in 30 seconds or so; it takes much longer for the minerals/salts in your negatives to leach out. Five minutes is not unreasonable.

And, don't reuse your distilled water/PhotoFlo mix. Use it one batch/one shot to keep the dissolved salts from building up in the solution.

A gallon of distilled water at the grocery store is cheap and worth it for the trouble it will save you.

Best,

Doremus

 

[Sirius Glass]

If one has problems with PhotoFlo in tap water, then by all means try filtered water or distilled water.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

If one has problems with PhotoFlo in tap water, then by all means try filtered water or distilled water.

Sirius,

The problem with water softeners of the ion-replacement type is that they "soften" by replacing carbonate and magnesium with dissolved salts. These are in the water in rather large amounts. When the water evaporates, there is a significant remainder of dry salt. No one wants this on their negatives. Note that filtering softened water won't remove dissolved salts. The only way is to soak it out in water with nothing dissolved in it. Distilled water works great for this. The salts will leach out to an acceptable level in a few minutes. The same applies to hard water that hasn't been softened; the carbonate and magnesium ions will leave deposits when dry. A good soak in distilled water removes these as well.

For those with hard water or water softened by ion replacement, soaking the negatives in distilled water for a few minutes will prevent "drying marks" caused by minerals left behind as the water evaporates. Note that this step really has nothing to do with the function of the wetting agent, however, it makes sense to combine this step with the wetting agent. Those who have soft enough water coming from the tap don't have to deal with this.

Best,

Doremus

 

[Cholentpot]

Sirius,

The problem with water softeners of the ion-replacement type is that they "soften" by replacing carbonate and magnesium with dissolved salts. These are in the water in rather large amounts. When the water evaporates, there is a significant remainder of dry salt. No one wants this on their negatives. Note that filtering softened water won't remove dissolved salts. The only way is to soak it out in water with nothing dissolved in it. Distilled water works great for this. The salts will leach out to an acceptable level in a few minutes. The same applies to hard water that hasn't been softened; the carbonate and magnesium ions will leave deposits when dry. A good soak in distilled water removes these as well.

For those with hard water or water softened by ion replacement, soaking the negatives in distilled water for a few minutes will prevent "drying marks" caused by minerals left behind as the water evaporates. Note that this step really has nothing to do with the function of the wetting agent, however, it makes sense to combine this step with the wetting agent. Those who have soft enough water coming from the tap don't have to deal with this.

Best,

Doremus

I've been soaking with a higher concentration of flo, 3-5 min soak and 45 degree angle for hanging the negs and the drying marks seem to be 95% gone which is good enough for me.

The secondary filter is supposed to take out the dissolved salts according to the company propaganda. And something something about regeneration and activated carbon.

 

[destroya]

keep it simple. use distilled water. 9 liters costs $3 at the grocery store. I bought a small 4 liter home distiller and use it for all my chems, including single shot developer.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Sirius,

The problem with water softeners of the ion-replacement type is that they "soften" by replacing carbonate and magnesium with dissolved salts. These are in the water in rather large amounts. When the water evaporates, there is a significant remainder of dry salt. No one wants this on their negatives. Note that filtering softened water won't remove dissolved salts. The only way is to soak it out in water with nothing dissolved in it. Distilled water works great for this. The salts will leach out to an acceptable level in a few minutes. The same applies to hard water that hasn't been softened; the carbonate and magnesium ions will leave deposits when dry. A good soak in distilled water removes these as well.

For those with hard water or water softened by ion replacement, soaking the negatives in distilled water for a few minutes will prevent "drying marks" caused by minerals left behind as the water evaporates. Note that this step really has nothing to do with the function of the wetting agent, however, it makes sense to combine this step with the wetting agent. Those who have soft enough water coming from the tap don't have to deal with this.

Best,

Doremus

My local water has always worked for me, but if it was not good for developing film I would go directly to distilled water.