Phoenix II - released 2025-07-16 - speculation and hints during the lead up

[kori]

I do appreciate the work Harman is doing, but at present, this product is still more like a curiosity than a film you qould really kike to use for great results. The lack of orange backing will make it tricky to pair with an enlarger and RA4 paper. The lack of antihalation layer is also a problem. I ordered two rolls because I want to try this, but it is unlikely I would biy more of this product. I am not interested in scanning film, neither will I take my films anywhere to be scanned. If you can´t print it, the product has not much value for me. But I do understand you don´t make a perfect color film from scratch. I still hope Harman will make a color film, which is up to the standards set by Kodak and Fuji after some years. This includes orange base and a working antihalation layer. We are after all talking about a company making some of the best black & white films and papers in the market - not a company selling cheap-o stuff with inflated prices to ignorant teenage hipsters. So, I do assume the aim is to make a product that could compete with Kodak in terms of quality. But it will take some time.

Yes. I agree with you.

 

[albireo]

And as for the boomers, surely the way to deal with the narrow-minded is to widen their knowledge as well, rather than referring to them with disdain.

Of course Matt, I agree - and yet, I believe there is an appreciable difference between sincere, unprovoked bigotry and 'response' bigotry. To get a message across, sometimes, I like to jump in the pit and use a language that will ring familiar to these people.

How do you English speakers say? 'A taste of your own medicine'?

 

[pentaxuser]

I found the first version of Phoenix surprisingly easy to print in the darkroom.

I think this is the first time I have heard this said, Steve Can I ask how authentic the colours looked? Better still can you show us examples of prints?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Milpool]

I’m not a hipster or a boomer but this entire saga is ridiculous.

 

[thinkbrown]

I’m not a hipster or a boomer but this entire saga is ridiculous.

Seriously. The rate that folks on this forum devolve into name-calling is kind of depressing

 

[Milpool]

Seriously. The rate that folks on this forum devolve into name-calling is kind of depressing

I was referring to the Phoenix product/project and associated consumer behaviour, but point taken.

 

[thinkbrown]

I was referring to the Phoenix product/project and associated consumer behaviour, but point taken.

Harman is doing a great job developing a new color film from scratch. It seems like given current trends they've decided they need to have a color offering and it's good to see them making steady progress there, especially given the complexity of a color emulsion

As far as personal opinion goes, I've really enjoyed shooting Phoenix and have taken some photos I really like. It's incredible to me that we still have as much choice in film as we do, given how niche a product it is at this point

 

[mshchem]

Niche is exactly where Harman wants to be.

Enthusiast driven sales. I bought a few rolls.

 

[0x001688936CA08]

I was referring to the Phoenix product/project and associated consumer behaviour, but point taken.

What is so ridiculous about it these things?

Harman making colour film is good, they seem to be making excellent progress. And people are buying it, is this not the kind of consumer behaviour that Harman and the broader film market would want?

 

[warden]

What is so ridiculous about it these things?

Harman making colour film is good, they seem to be making excellent progress. And people are buying it, is this not the kind of consumer behaviour that Harman and the broader film market would want?

I agree with @0x001688936CA08227494hhdHHgsor_00. This is a good thing from Harman, full stop.

 

[MattKing]

I agree with @0x001688936CA08227494hhdHHgsor_00. This is a good thing from Harman, full stop.

FWIW, I'm not too upset about people not liking how things are marketed.
For us tending-towards-older folks, life seemed more fun and exciting when we were the target demographic for ads for photographic stuff.
Now we seem to be the target demographic for ads for funerals, seniors' life insurance and other products directed toward health conditions that are just too embarrassing to post about.

 

[thinkbrown]

FWIW, I'm not too upset about people not liking how things are marketed.
For us tending-towards-older folks, life seemed more fun and exciting when we were the target demographic for ads for photographic stuff.
Now we seem to be the target demographic for ads for funerals, seniors' life insurance and other products directed toward health conditions that are just too embarrassing to post about.

If it makes you feel any better I'm pretty sure my film habit has made me a prime target for AARP ads, and I'm a couple decades away from that

 

[dcy]

I agree Just a pity that Harman does not. Perhaps it feels its future lies with the influencers. We live in an era where you are either "Quick or Dead " to cannibalise Norman's book title

I don't think it has much to do with influencers or "quick or dead". Perhaps it does. But I would posit that for any hobby to survive, it has to bring in new members to replace the ones that pass or exit the hobby. I discovered the name "Harman" through YouTube. I do not watch TV. I red newspapers but I haven't seen Harman advertising in the NYT. I use and ad blocker on most websites. The only ways for me to have discovered Harman would be either by watching a YouTube that I follow talk about it, or through word of mouth.

 

[Prest_400]

I don't think it has much to do with influencers or "quick or dead". Perhaps it does. But I would posit that for any hobby to survive, it has to bring in new members to replace the ones that pass or exit the hobby. I discovered the name "Harman" through YouTube. I do not watch TV. I red newspapers but I haven't seen Harman advertising in the NYT. I use and ad blocker on most websites. The only ways for me to have discovered Harman would be either by watching a YouTube that I follow talk about it, or through word of mouth.

FWIW it is a different society now in general and social media has reshaped it a towards attention economy. It's not anymore the random person blogging whatever happens, but influencers; Not anymore the general advertisement. Sometimes I reflect that I appear to have a bit of "TikTok mind" more as reduced attention span and quick succession and context switch... Even if not an user of that platform, the format has spread and is the norm.

I was a kid during the digital revolution and about brand names, I never heard of ILFORD until I took photography seriously and then discovered them as the leading B&W manufacturer they are. Infact, I would only recall colour manufacturers.

 

[Agulliver]

I believe one or two of our own moderators here have successfully printed Phoenix I in the darkroom, unless I am mistaken? It was said to be easier than expected.

I have no issues with what Harman are doing. But my friend group ranges from 20 years old to people in their 80s. I listen to what they all say. The younger folk, especially those into creative pursuits, get most of their info (including marketing for new products/services) from social media. They don't watch TV at all in some cases. Which is why TV ads have become a place to learn about funeral care, senior citizens life insurance and stair lifts.

Ilford/Harman do retain a presence here and will also answer questions you send them via email....but they know the longer term future of film is with younger people taking up the hobby....not the demographic pondering commercials for simple cremations. Film is a niche. B&W film is a niche within a niche. If Harman want to continue their truly unmatched range of B&W film products, they need to expand the business...and one very obvious way to do so is to get into the colour negative film market as it's at least 10x bigger than the B&W market. Even gaining a 10% share of that market potentially doubles their revenue stream from film sales. Harman/Ilford/Kentmere is still a niche even with the colour film.

I'm unsure what about any of this is supposed to be ridiculous. Harman have clearly engaged the services of a marketing team who know very well what they're doing. We follow their brands anyway, so we know what they're up to. There would be little point at this juncture advertising to us. What they need to do is get info and buzz going among the younger people coming new to film photography who don't know what Harman or even Ilford are.

 

[koraks]

I believe one or two of our own moderators here have successfully printed Phoenix I in the darkroom, unless I am mistaken? It was said to be easier than expected.

I did, and I certainly didn't say it was easier than expected. (It's funny how human memory works and how easily it apparently corrupts in the direction of what we would like vs what really happened.) If you're looking for realistic enlarger prints from CN film, then Phoenix I is definitely NOT the way to go. You can print it, but the results are quite extreme.
By the looks of Phoenix II so far it would print significantly more normal, but still a very far way off from regular CN films.

Feet of clay – My first impression of Harman Phoenix – Koraks tinkers

tinker.koraks.nl

 

[Milpool]

What is so ridiculous about it these things?

Harman making colour film is good, they seem to be making excellent progress. And people are buying it, is this not the kind of consumer behaviour that Harman and the broader film market would want?

Of course buying this stuff and however many versions of it is exactly what Harman would want. It’s not exactly a new business model, nor is it unique to film, but I find it insidious, and the behaviour/reasoning of the targets ridiculous. I also think when it comes to colour film and the colour film market this Harman venture is pointless but that’s another matter. And I’m not even a boomer, though I do realize how utterly shameful my opinion is and how ashamed I should be (this is not directed at you).

 

[Agulliver]

Of course buying this stuff and however many versions of it is exactly what Harman would want. It’s not exactly a new business model, nor is it unique to film, but I find it insidious, and the behaviour/reasoning of the targets ridiculous. I also think when it comes to colour film and the colour film market this Harman venture is pointless but that’s another matter. And I’m not even a boomer, though I do realize how utterly shameful my opinion is and how ashamed I should be (this is not directed at you).

I do not understand such negativity. Harman cannot simply put themselves in a jar, seal it and label it 2010. If they are to continue to serve the B&W film users in the peerless way they do, then they need other products to expand the business. There is nothing "insidious" about Phoenix at all. How else are they supposed to fund R&D on a product that took huge multinational companies decades and many millions to perfect?

If you don't like or want to experiment with Phoenix that's perfectly fine. But is the world not a better place for it's existence? It's already lead to Phoenix II and, in time, will hopefully lead to another competitive CN film on the market...which is great for everyone. Having just one competent manufacturer of CN film is not healthy....as great as Kodak's products are.

 

[brbo]

I believe one or two of our own moderators here have successfully printed Phoenix I in the darkroom, unless I am mistaken? It was said to be easier than expected.

I'm not a mod nor very experienced in wet printing. Though, if I can comment on the ease of printing the original Phoenix... I would say that, yes, it's easy to print. It's got huge grain so focusing is very easy. The rest is really exactly the same as with any other film, you expose the paper and develop the paper.

Is it easy to get good prints? Ummm... no. NO. Getting a good scan from Phoenix I is child's play compared to getting a good wet print.

 

[pentaxuser]

I did, and I certainly didn't say it was easier than expected. (It's funny how human memory works and how easily it apparently corrupts in the direction of what we would like vs what really happened.) If you're looking for realistic enlarger prints from CN film, then Phoenix I is definitely NOT the way to go. You can print it, but the results are quite extreme.
By the looks of Phoenix II so far it would print significantly more normal, but still a very far way off from regular CN films.

Feet of clay – My first impression of Harman Phoenix – Koraks tinkers

tinker.koraks.nl

Thanks for that, koraks. Hence my question to Steve about his reply. It will be interesting to see if anyone tries to see if darkroom printing is better with Phoenix II and how close the colours now come to those made from standard C41 negs

pentaxuser

 

[MattKing]

Of course buying this stuff and however many versions of it is exactly what Harman would want. It’s not exactly a new business model, nor is it unique to film, but I find it insidious, and the behaviour/reasoning of the targets ridiculous. I also think when it comes to colour film and the colour film market this Harman venture is pointless but that’s another matter. And I’m not even a boomer, though I do realize how utterly shameful my opinion is and how ashamed I should be (this is not directed at you).

The biggest advantage enjoyed by Harman is their pre-existing international distribution system - they have a ready to access pipeline of local distributors and retailers - internet and bricks and mortar - that are already set up to support photographic enthusiasts.
No one else has such an efficient and relatively low cost structure.
If Harman are successful in getting significant numbers of users of Kodak and Fuji colour negative films to switch, Harman's business will grow significantly.
That distribution system is almost as important an asset to Harman as its technological capabilities.

 

[pentaxuser]

I agree Matt and I doubt if anyone disagrees. It has all the incentive it needs to make its mark in the C21

pentaxuser

 

[koraks]

It will be interesting to see if anyone tries to see if darkroom printing is better with Phoenix II and how close the colours now come to those made from standard C41 negs

Prints will look slightly more normal, but contrast is still off the charts compared to what RA4 paper expects. So this is a long way removed from normal C41 still.