Phoenix II - released 2025-07-16 - speculation and hints during the lead up

[pentaxuser]

I'm not going to name them (it's probably easy enough to find out) but one well known UK retailer who also operates a lab stocked Phoenix I and is holding off stocking Phoenix II because of the difficulties they had scanning I. And they, like my local lab, found the advice offered by Harman didn't help.

Its attitude sounds a bit like having a problem with the first iteratíon of something then refusing to accept that any further iterations can be any better in terms of scanning. Sounds like a very shortsighted and possibly expensive attitude for them to take but it's up to them of course

pentaxuser

 

[2ndGenNikonian]

Yeah, it took a bit of experimentation, but my local lab was able to get some scanner settings that make Phoenix 1.0 look decent. Can't wait to snag a roll of 2.0 for myself and see how it turns out.

 

[kori]

New film releases are always welcome.
But, little bit expensive.

 

[Samu]

New film releases are always welcome.
But, little bit expensive.

I do appreciate the work Harman is doing, but at present, this product is still more like a curiosity than a film you qould really kike to use for great results. The lack of orange backing will make it tricky to pair with an enlarger and RA4 paper. The lack of antihalation layer is also a problem. I ordered two rolls because I want to try this, but it is unlikely I would biy more of this product. I am not interested in scanning film, neither will I take my films anywhere to be scanned. If you can´t print it, the product has not much value for me. But I do understand you don´t make a perfect color film from scratch. I still hope Harman will make a color film, which is up to the standards set by Kodak and Fuji after some years. This includes orange base and a working antihalation layer. We are after all talking about a company making some of the best black & white films and papers in the market - not a company selling cheap-o stuff with inflated prices to ignorant teenage hipsters. So, I do assume the aim is to make a product that could compete with Kodak in terms of quality. But it will take some time.

 

[tykos]

The influencers need to push out content quickly, and many do not have the patience to fine-tune a particular emulsion or process. I wouldn't put too much stocks in early influencer's results. It is the real long-term users like us who can actually judge and truly appreciate unique emulsions.

i think they've had their test film for quite some time, main problem could be they didn't have all that much stock and there's not much you can fine tune with a couple of rolls or so...

 

[dcy]

But I do understand you don´t make a perfect color film from scratch.

"Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither was Portra" --- Shaka1277.

 

[halfaman]

I do appreciate the work Harman is doing, but at present, this product is still more like a curiosity than a film you qould really kike to use for great results. The lack of orange backing will make it tricky to pair with an enlarger and RA4 paper. The lack of antihalation layer is also a problem. I ordered two rolls because I want to try this, but it is unlikely I would biy more of this product. I am not interested in scanning film, neither will I take my films anywhere to be scanned. If you can´t print it, the product has not much value for me. But I do understand you don´t make a perfect color film from scratch. I still hope Harman will make a color film, which is up to the standards set by Kodak and Fuji after some years. This includes orange base and a working antihalation layer. We are after all talking about a company making some of the best black & white films and papers in the market - not a company selling cheap-o stuff with inflated prices to ignorant teenage hipsters. So, I do assume the aim is to make a product that could compete with Kodak in terms of quality. But it will take some time.

But I wonder what will happen if Lucky finally put this year (or beggining of next one) all over the world the promised "true" ISO 200 negative color film similar to Kodak Gold-Color Plus for 10-11 euros/dollars. Could be a problem for the Phoenix roadmap to a "complete" color negative film?

 

[Sanug]

I don't think so. Lucky needs to solve their quality issues with SHD400 first. Color film will be a bigger challenge.

 

[Agulliver]

Lucky 200ISO colour film is supposed to be appearing imminently, indeed some sources say today 17th July.

There's a big enough market for CN film to accommodate Harman and Lucky, should they both end up in the ring with Kodak. Even Fuji, if they actually resume production. For a start, Harman have a lot of good will towards them which Lucky don't enjoy. Though in all honestly, I'd probably try Lucky too.

Looks like my Phoenix II is on it's way to me so I'll be trying it out at the very end of this month on a trip to Brighton.

 

[albireo]

I do appreciate the work Harman is doing, but at present, this product is still more like a curiosity than a film [...]

It's very much an actual film for many users out there.

[...] We are after all talking about a company making some of the best black & white films and papers in the market - not a company selling cheap-o stuff with inflated prices to ignorant teenage hipsters.

In my opinion selling film to ignorant teenage hipsters sounds like a better business plan than selling film to insufferable narrow-minded boomers.

The boomers are probably spending most of their time farting in their armchair and furiously typing against new film products, hipsters, and the clouds, rather than actually buying film and going out there taking actual pictures. Not a lot of money to be made out of them, so can't blame Harman or other companies for ignoring them.

 

[ChrisGalway]

The lack of orange backing will make it tricky to pair with an enlarger and RA4 paper. ........

This was probably just a typo / wrong word, but the colour of the backing ... if it was just a backing ... is surely not important and could be compensated by filtration. As far as I know, the purpose of the orange mask is to compensate for the imperfections of the dyes in the emulsion, and to be effective it has to work in any image-wise fashion as outlined in point 3 in post 104, i.e. "Add an image-wise mask that effectively compensates for the image-forming dye imperfections, in a dynamic (so image density-dependent) way ".

Given that all the leading colour negative films have such an image-wise mask, if Harman are to eventually achieve a high-quality film they must either implement this mask, or find better dyes that remove the need for a mask in the first place. This latter solution would be novel and perhaps within the bounds of possibility? Now that would be progress!

 

[Nitroplait]

...should they both end up in the ring with Kodak. Even Fuji, if they actually resume production.

Probably won't happen in my lifetime.
The previous Fujifilm CEO said it took them more than 30 years to catch up with Kodak's color science.

I just wish people would use less Instax so Fujifilm can free up some capacity to make more 35mm/120 film in Japan.

 

[ChrisGalway]

.....

I just wish people would use less Instax so Fujifilm can free up some capacity to make more 35mm/120 film in Japan.

Agreed! Especially Provia 100f !

 

[dcy]

I just wish people would use less Instax so Fujifilm can free up some capacity to make more 35mm/120 film in Japan.

Isn't it just as likely that Fuji would decide that film is dead and they need to liquidate what's left of their film capacity?

 

[BMbikerider]

it is on sale in UK NOW! At Firstcall photographic and the colour of the box is Cyan not the same as the original plus it is marked colour negative film

 

[BMbikerider]

I hope it's available in 120...

Yes it is!

 

[ChrisGalway]

Isn't it just as likely that Fuji would decide that film is dead and they need to liquidate what's left of their film capacity?

Yes, possibly, but making Instax is like printing money … like other films back in the day. I think Kodak’s margins 30 years ago on film would put Apple’s 40% to shame!

But Fujifilm is very diversified now, and their whole photo business is a small part of the company. They could ditch it all.

 

[perkeleellinen]

I found the first version of Phoenix surprisingly easy to print in the darkroom.

 

[Nitroplait]

Isn't it just as likely that Fuji would decide that film is dead and they need to liquidate what's left of their film capacity?

But Fujifilm is very diversified now, and their whole photo business is a small part of the company. They could ditch it all.

In a recent Japanese interview Fujifilm's CEO said that film production will always be part of their DNA and assured they will not stop their analog film production.
A CEO promise may not be the most confidence inspiring but that expresses their current view at least.

My fear is that if film production becomes a "charity business" for Fujifilm, they will likely only keep the above promise towards the Japanese market - Japansese companies value the heritage and loyalty of their homemarket over anything.
Currently fresh Made in Japan negative film like FujiColor 100 and Superia Premium 400 are easily available on the Japanese market. The rest of the world have to do with Kodak made Fujifilm or overpriced parallel imports.

 

[Prest_400]

Isn't it just as likely that Fuji would decide that film is dead and they need to liquidate what's left of their film capacity?

In a recent Japanese interview Fujifilm's CEO said that film production will always be part of their DNA and assured they will not stop their analog film production.
A CEO promise may not be the most confidence inspiring but that expresses their current view at least.

My fear is that if film production becomes a "charity business" for Fujifilm, they will likely only keep the above promise towards the Japanese market - Japansese companies value the heritage and loyalty of their homemarket over anything.
Currently fresh Made in Japan negative film like FujiColor 100 and Superia Premium 400 are easily available on the Japanese market. The rest of the world have to do with Kodak made Fujifilm or overpriced parallel imports.

Instax seems to be really successful and do wish for some rumored "2025" comeback for their standard film range aka more availability in C41 of Fujicolor 100 and Superia Premium 400 plus perhaps 120 for them? Then Fujichrome which drips into markets and is bought out quickly; if anything a good signal that the demand is there... They didn't quite comeback from the 2022/23 shortage announcement.

Then there is the interesting "Made in UK" Acros II.

About the quality of film. I find very interesting to end up in 1990-2000s forum threads, mostly Photo.net, when there was a full fledged Kodak vs Fuji market war and read how this was perceived at the time. Of course, Fuji and Kodak are who got proven highest quality products. For me, one aspect that is not so known for the newer entrants are archival characteristics.

Back to Harman. I am not quite the target market for Phoenix II but the scanned results look really good and there is improvement. Personally am more curious as to how comparable Harman will be to late films like Agfa, Konica and Ferrania. Then eventually coming to a quality product with some specific palette and characteristics.
There is even an opportunity to have a film with generous halation, which might be rare after Vision3 becomes remjetless.

 

[Oldwino]

Phoenix II looks like a decent film now, certainly fairly priced, and usable in a variety of situations (mostly when you want the particular film look to strongly impress upon your photo). It is a specialty film, much like Gold 200 is. Neither is "realistic" in their color palette - if you want that, one of the Portras or even Ektar would be a better choice. Or, digital.
Phoenix II is sort of like Aerocolor - nice, but with a distinctive look.

 

[Daniël Oosterhuis]

My fear is that if film production becomes a "charity business" for Fujifilm, they will likely only keep the above promise towards the Japanese market - Japansese companies value the heritage and loyalty of their homemarket over anything.
Currently fresh Made in Japan negative film like FujiColor 100 and Superia Premium 400 are easily available on the Japanese market. The rest of the world have to do with Kodak made Fujifilm or overpriced parallel imports.

At least they do sell Provia and Velvia in the Western markets.
As for the Kodafuji films, I do wonder if those aren't place holder products for future Fujifilm, with them having the same UPCs as the discontinued color negative films (which keeps the store shelves "warm").

But that's for another thread, I think

 

[MattKing]

a company selling cheap-o stuff with inflated prices to ignorant teenage hipsters.

In my opinion selling film to ignorant teenage hipsters sounds like a better business plan than selling film to insufferable narrow-minded boomers.

@Samu and @albireo ,

Moderator hat on:

Just a reminder that some people come to Photrio because they want to learn more about something that is new to them.
If we could avoid labelling the uninformed as "ignorant" and "hipsters" just because they have things to learn, it really would be better for everybody!

And as for the boomers, surely the way to deal with the narrow-minded is to widen their knowledge as well, rather than referring to them with disdain.

Hat's off now.

 

[pentaxuser]

The influencers need to push out content quickly, and many do not have the patience to fine-tune a particular emulsion or process. I wouldn't put too much stocks in early influencer's results. It is the real long-term users like us who can actually judge and truly appreciate unique emulsions.

I agree Just a pity that Harman does not. Perhaps it feels its future lies with the influencers. We live in an era where you are either "Quick or Dead " to cannibalise Norman's book title

pentaxuser

 

[pentaxuser]

@Samu and @albireo ,

Moderator hat on:


And as for the boomers,

As for the boomers I suspect most of us wish we were still "booming" in the broadest sense of the word

pentaxuser