Pentax: Two new compact film cameras planned - Pentax 17 announced June 2024

[Pioneer]

I suspect the bean counters are saying..."If this doesn't sell, why would we make another??"

 

[Cholentpot]

I suspect the bean counters are saying..."If this doesn't sell, why would we make another??"

I don't think the bean counters are heavily involved with this one. If they were it wouldn't be happening.

 

[Lee Rust]

Quality vs Quantity.

Remember that the main reason for buying a half-frame camera is to get more pictures out of each expensive roll of film. I have several half-frames and the slightly grainy look of the images is expected but acceptable. The biggest drawback is the amount of time it can take to take 72-75 pictures, so I usually reserve their use for special occasions or social events where there will be dozens of photo opportunities.

Portrait orientation is normal for smartphone folks, but for a new generation raised on instant imagery, I would think that the frustration of waiting to get to that last frame on a 36 exposure roll would be a big drawback. Even 24 exposures might be too much, so we may well see a return to 20 or even 12 exposure 35mm film cartridges. Attractively but profitably priced, of course.

 

[aw614]

For some reason the whole project being half-frame, doesn't bother me. With some decent manual control and scale focus, I'd probably be happy with the results.

I am curious about the lens that is going to be used, something like a Digital GR III Lens type 28mm equivalent with modern coatings and design would be nice.

 

[Pioneer]

If I decided to step into half frame, and it is a BIG if, I would roll my own film. Ten or 12 exposures would be about right I think. Unfortunately I can't think of any really good reason to move to the smaller negative. If 35mm film gets that costly I would probably move to digital. It is not my preference but I'm afraid that I would do it anyway.

Fortunately I have lots of good 35mm cameras available to me so I don't need to make any life changing decisions today.

 

[cmacd123]

Considering that Pentax has such a wide open territory all to themselves in making a real film camera, the half-frame seems a very odd choice to me as the first camera to introduce (as the only real new option) south of the venerable Leica rangefinder. I feel like most people would be much happier to see a traditional format 35mm camera.

it could be a very well thought out choice. with a half frame and a 25mm or so lens, focus will be a minor point of failure, although getting the right zone will work better, so a learning person will have a soft landing. likewise depth of field will not give fuzzy backgrounds so no shocks.

to do a full frame you would be looking at a 38 mm lens likes the FED 50, https://camerapedia.fandom.com/wiki/FED_50 and the Trip 35 https://camerapedia.fandom.com/wiki/Olympus_Trip_35 uses a 40mm. these are the sort of cameras that allow anyone with minimal instruction to take home satisfying pictures. when I was selling cameras and I got a customer who came in saying that they wanted to buy a camera as the were leaving on a big vacation "tomorrow" my first thought was always the Trip 35.

all things equal a half frame makes for a smaller (thickness) camera - more like the cell phone that many young folks carry in the special cell pockets that some modern pants already provide.

I was thinking this morning that the manual advance/rewind will be helpful if Dave Marshal of flic film is right and we can only get plastic cassettes. I have trouble with my Canon eos cameras with those as the torque required sometimes causes the camera to think it is at the end of the roll when it is not.
auto exposure is probably something that they can "borrow" from a recent compact digital design.

 

[4season]

I'm alright with this camera not being all about Me, Me, Me, and my alleged demographic - how boring would that be! IMO, the old-fart-with-money demographic is already really well served by makers of powerful motor vehicles, pretty much the entire high-end audio industry, etc, etc. I've a hunch that today's young folks are not clamoring for a new ponycar or K1000 reissue, at least not at 2024 limited-run prices.

Half-frame 35 mm is fun, and so is half-frame medium format aka 6x4.5.

 

[bfilm]

all things equal a half frame makes for a smaller (thickness) camera - more like the cell phone that many young folks carry in the special cell pockets that some modern pants already provide.

I don't think this is true. After all, it still has to fit a roll of 35mm film. I don't think anything is ever going to be thinner than the old Leica screw mount rangefinder cameras.

 

[ph]

This has obviously become a thread about film window size rather than about the sucessor to Asahi, so the headline should be changed by an admin.

The plastic Minoxes and mr Waaskes Rollei 35 and their copies were much smaller than the Leitz products and still 24x36.

I found that even 24x24 with 50 pictures per roll was quite slow in being finished although I am used to a bit of waiting until film results come out.

p.

 

[albada]

Quality vs Quantity.
The biggest drawback is the amount of time it can take to take 72-75 pictures, so I usually reserve their use for special occasions or social events where there will be dozens of photo opportunities.

They shoot a bunch.
I suspect the young crowd is used to taking 5 shots of everything because digital shots are free. For such people, 72 pictures might be too few. "I already used up this roll?"

 

[albireo]

Quality vs Quantity.

Remember that the main reason for buying a half-frame camera is to get more pictures out of each expensive roll of film. I have several half-frames and the slightly grainy look of the images is expected but acceptable.

Interesting food for thought. I wonder if we should agree, first, on a shared definition of 'quality'. There seems to be a chasm between how the historical generation of film users defines quality and how the new one does it.

I'd argue a well exposed, well developed and well scanned half frame image can produce an extremely high quality photograph, if the lens is good.
I'd argue a scan of a 35mm Delta 3200 frame exposed at 800 and developed in Rodinal 1:25 can produce an extremely high quality photograph.

What do these two images share? They'll both be grainy.

But that's fine. The fact that an image is grainy doesn't mean for many, that it's 'lower quality' compared to a non grainy image. In fact, for some the opposite is true. Grain, for many in the younger cohort, is a feature, not a bug. We can produce all the squeaky clean, grainless images we want with a phone or (for those who own one) a DSLR.

So the fact that this Pentax camera will produce grainier images than a 35mm camera will be a non-issue for many, and will in fact be used as a desirable creative device by many.

As for the quantity argument: the 72 frames will be seen as another welcome creative device. I've seen many beautiful examples of half frame dyptichs. People might try to shoot 2 consecutive frames for a certain scene instead of one: two different angles, two different light conditions; a portrait from two slightly different angles; a portrait featuring two different facial expressions; a vertically and a horizontally oriented set or the same scene. The possibilities are endless. Most film scanners only ship with full frame 35mm film holders: most people will scan these half frame images in pairs anyway. So many will use this camera as a 2x 36 frame ('click'! 'click') imaging device.

And when one is tired of dyptichs, knowing 72 shots are available (and provided the camera will be pocketable) might make it an exceptional 'visual notebook' to take everywhere. I know many people who could easily do 100 shots in a day. If you walk, cycle a lot, take the subway, drive to/from work, there are infinite things to see and take pictures of.

As somebody who mainy uses cameras which take 12 frames per roll, I'm actually looking forward to this camera, IF the lens will be really good, that is. If the lens ends up being some plastic low-fi thing, it's a no from me.

 

[Agulliver]

I would also assume that once a half frame 35mm camera makes it to the market, and hopefully proves successful (whatever that means to Pentax in 2024) that a full frame version wouldn't be too difficult to engineer. The difficult stuff would already have been done....and once the half frame has been on the market a few months they'll be confident that it works in the wild.

For a long time they've been talking about two compact cameras first. We assumed that was two full frame cameras with different lenses. Perhaps we were wrong and it's going to turn out to be a half frame followed a few months later by a full frame?

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

The benchmark for this new offering, for me, will be how it compares to the Ricoh 35rf (ca. 1980). I consider that camera to be nigh-on perfect in the realm of 35mm compacts. A half-frame version with a similar feature set is something I would be extremely interested in. In terms of features it sports:

- Rikenon 40mm f/2.8-16, 1/500-1/8s plus B, leaf shutter
- Optional shutter priority needle trap auto exposure via CdS, ISO 25-800
- Mechanical advance/rewind, self-timer, threaded shutter release, and hotshoe
- Coupled rangefinder

A 28mm half-frame version with modern guts would be amazing. However, a leaf shutter & proper rangefinder focusing isn't likely. Some sort of manual exposure override seems an open question as well.

Edit: The existential problem for an experienced photographer is that there's probably no way the new camera will be able to compete in terms of features or after-market price with this 40+ year old model. I can always pick up my Canon Dial for 28mm half frame or go all out with the Pen FV. But it is a different set of considerations altogether for someone less entrenched into the hobby.

 

[abruzzi]

However, a leaf shutter & proper rangefinder focusing isn't likely.

I haven't been following this at all, so I don't know what has been officially stated by Pentax, but back in the 80's-90's--the high time for 35mm point-and-shoot cameras--most of those cameras had leaf shutters didn't they? The few compacts I owned were leaf shutter (Pentax IQ Zoom & Olympus XA) FP shutters were actually pretty uncommon on compact cameras.

 

[bfilm]

I haven't been following this at all, so I don't know what has been officially stated by Pentax, but back in the 80's-90's--the high time for 35mm point-and-shoot cameras--most of those cameras had leaf shutters didn't they? The few compacts I owned were leaf shutter (Pentax IQ Zoom & Olympus XA) FP shutters were actually pretty uncommon on compact cameras.

I don't think they have given very much detail on the shutter yet. The latest video states:

"...we incorporated a few electronic-control mechanisms in the new camera. One of them is the acclaimed electronic shutter unit. We plan to customize it for use in a film camera."

Kind of vague. No information, either, as to what or why it is acclaimed. Maybe they are adapting the current Ricoh GR-series electronic shutter, which I think is a leaf shutter. Although, I suppose it is also possible that they are adapting one of their SLR focal plane shutter units.

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

--the high time for 35mm point-and-shoot cameras--most of those cameras had leaf shutters didn't they?

Yep, it would be a requirement for any p&s that offered an integral flash. Otherwise it wouldn't sync across the entire range of shutter speeds.

Maybe they are adapting the current Ricoh GR-series electronic shutter, which I think is a leaf shutter.

This seems likely the more I think about it. My mind immediately jumped to the focal plane variety given my usual oeuvre of cameras, but the technology is definitely exists for a suitable modern leaf shutter. AFAICT the recently released Alfie Tych probably uses a leaf style shutter, self-described as 'silent'. I don't have any experience with the GR series, but my Nikon A (ca. 2013 APS-C, aka digital half-frame) also utilizes a leaf shutter.

 

[Agulliver]

It makes sense that the shutter will be an adaptation of something they're already using in a (likely Ricoh branded) digital camera. I would expect this new camera to have an integral flash as all the smartphones have one, and "the kids" will be used to taking flash photos. Also, colour film faster than 400ISO is both expensive and difficult to come by so they're going to be shooting at lower ISO than they're used to. Most of "the kids" are shooting colour and not B&W, though I bet a fair few will experiment with at least XP2.

 

[Cholentpot]

I just scored another half-frame. A Sure Shot Multi Tele.

I'm in middle of my first roll and shooting a auto focus fully auto half frame is a trip. I think Pentax is onto something.

 

[Agulliver]

Years ago I purchased a Fujica Drive half frame camera on fleabay, because they were being given away at the time. I only put one roll of film through it before selling it on....which was a mistake. It was a lovely camera and having the option of a half frame camera these days would be fun. Last year I was given a simple but reasonably effective Bencini half frame 120 camera, getting 24 shots on a 120 roll. So far I've put just one roll through it but it was fun, and a back to basics experience. In the same way I sometimes decide to put a roll through a box camera. While the young'uns will certainly be the target audience, there is potentially a smaller but extant wider market for this product.

But also "the kids" will be used to shooting several shots at a time. They use phone cameras much in the same way as "the kids" used Instamatics in the 60s....when 20 and 24 exposure rolls were considered an improvement over 12 or 16, and flash cubes were important for a night out so one could shoot four pictures before replacing the cube. getting 72 photos on one day/night won't be a problem for them.

I'm also wondering if there might be some sort of "pay by installments" available. Practically all of us have a smart phone which we pay for by way of a loan which is part of our monthly contract. Younger folk are now very much used to this model of payment for expensive items rather then going all out and paying £$600 at once or putting it on a credit card. Just a thought for how the new cameras might be made more accessible.

 

[grain elevator]

Yep, it would be a requirement for any p&s that offered an integral flash. Otherwise it wouldn't sync across the entire range of shutter speeds.


This seems likely the more I think about it. My mind immediately jumped to the focal plane variety given my usual oeuvre of cameras, but the technology is definitely exists for a suitable modern leaf shutter. AFAICT the recently released Alfie Tych probably uses a leaf style shutter, self-described as 'silent'. I don't have any experience with the GR series, but my Nikon A (ca. 2013 APS-C, aka digital half-frame) also utilizes a leaf shutter.

Now that you mention it, that might actually be a reason to make a half frame camera: The shutter from the digital GR series would probably be too small for a reasonably fast lens that covers 24x36.

 

[willfrancis]

Speaking as one of “the kids”, it seems to me the idea has legs, and I’d like to think Pentax have appraised the target market correctly. As others have pointed out, with clever marketing the drawbacks of half-frame become advantages in the current economy, and there’s a ‘difference’ factor that could attract people who’d perhaps nod enthusiastically but otherwise spend their cash on a more proven second-hand body. Artistically, I’d love to try shooting and projecting pairs of half-frames as diptych slides, so I can’t wait to see what the offering is (and a subscription model, if sensibly staged, could actually be a significant plus!)

 

[pbromaghin]

Speaking as one of “the kids”, it seems to me the idea has legs, and I’d like to think Pentax have appraised the target market correctly. As others have pointed out, with clever marketing the drawbacks of half-frame become advantages in the current economy, and there’s a ‘difference’ factor that could attract people who’d perhaps nod enthusiastically but otherwise spend their cash on a more proven second-hand body. Artistically, I’d love to try shooting and projecting pairs of half-frames as diptych slides, so I can’t wait to see what the offering is (and a subscription model, if sensibly staged, could actually be a significant plus!)

it's nice to hear from one of "the kids". As an old fart, I get tired of my own opinions. Thank you for posting.

 

[Agulliver]

Speaking as one of “the kids”, it seems to me the idea has legs, and I’d like to think Pentax have appraised the target market correctly. As others have pointed out, with clever marketing the drawbacks of half-frame become advantages in the current economy, and there’s a ‘difference’ factor that could attract people who’d perhaps nod enthusiastically but otherwise spend their cash on a more proven second-hand body. Artistically, I’d love to try shooting and projecting pairs of half-frames as diptych slides, so I can’t wait to see what the offering is (and a subscription model, if sensibly staged, could actually be a significant plus!)

Thanks for this, it is great to hear what younger photographers actually think and how you use cameras and film...and what you'd want in the future.

Pentax have done a lot of market research among young Japanese getting into film, but I don't know how well that translates to the wider world. Cultures differ but from the few younger photographers I've talked to....this half frame idea works.

I like to remind myself of something that happened to me last year. I was in an antiques emporium and witnessed a boy who cannot have been older than 15 picking up an early 2000s digital camera and saying to his mother "No, this is way too old"...and I had a little laugh under my breath as partner and I were looking for vintage cameras.

Upstairs in the same shop, I spotted a glass cabinet with what I was actually looking for and asked for it to be opened....whereupon that same kid came along and picked up a 70s SLR and was going over all the functions and explaining to his mum why the digital camera had been too old for his needs, but this film camera would meet all his needs.

Now clearly he probably wasn't going to buy a $£600 half frame Pentax....but this kid had learned a lot. Having likely never actually handled a film SLR before he knew exactly what he wanted. And £120 later he had his camera and a decent kit lens. I hope he's spent the intervening months nagging his parents for film

And I was wrong. He did ave a real reason to feel the digital camera was "too old".

 

[brbo]

The 'difference' factor would be a square format on 135 film. Even in the film era there were not that many small format cameras that would shoot square. On the other hand there is still a number of HF cameras on the used camera market...

But I understand why half-frame was an easy choice. Most of the mini labs should easily handle HF, square would be a nightmare.

Thinking more about this, I think if Pentax comes out with a 23-25mm f2.8, AE (with manual override), zone focus half-frame camera... it will be a BOMB! If they can keep the price reasonable.

 

[foc]

The 'difference' factor would be a square format on 135 film. Even in the film era there were not that many small format cameras that would shoot square.

I remember the Agfa Rapid system (based on the Agfa Karat) where some camera models shot square on 35mm film. It was Agfa's answer to Kodak's 126, but it never really succeeded despite other manufacturers making models to suit the system.

Agfa Rapid

The first film camera I ever shot was a Penti half frame that used the Rapid film cassette (the GDR/DDR version)