To have the test be meaningful, both camera light meters must be calibrated by the same laboratory.
Pentax 67II vs. Bronica GS-1 - I can't keep both. Which one should I sell?
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To have the test be meaningful, both camera light meters must be calibrated by the same laboratory.
Could you post a photo of the side of the back that mates to the body? It is intuitively odd there would be two sets of electrical contacts on the back...the only electrical data should be the ISO setting for the film which is loaded.
There is a mechanical interlock...
- which should prevent the shutter from being released when the film has not been advanced to the next frame (unless there is a multi-exposure switch set on the body of Bronicas with that feature), and
- there might be an interlock on Bronica backs (depending upon vintage of back) which prevents shutter from being released if the dark slide has not been removed.
The two mechanical pin connectors between back and body on a Bronica ETR, SQ, or GS, as wiltw said, communicate whether the back and camera are wound, and whether the darkslide is in or out to prevent shutter firing when the darkslide is in. They don't have to do with metering.
All Bronica backs of these systems prevent the shutter firing when the darkslide is in, I believe. However, only the later generation of backs prevent removing the darkslide when the back is off the camera, I think that's the generational difference wiltw was thinking of. You can tell the difference because the later darkslides have a little notch near the bottom, and the backs have a little sprung metal piece that engages the notch. (On the ETR and SQ, the later darkslides with the notch have a gray handle. On the GS, I think all the darkslides have the notch and a black handle. That's real Bronica trivia.)
All Bronica backs of these systems prevent the shutter firing when the darkslide is in, I believe. However, only the later generation of backs prevent removing the darkslide when the back is off the camera, I think that's the generational difference wiltw was thinking of. You can tell the difference because the later darkslides have a little notch near the bottom, and the backs have a little sprung metal piece that engages the notch. (On the ETR and SQ, the later darkslides with the notch have a gray handle. On the GS, I think all the darkslides have the notch and a black handle. That's real Bronica trivia.)
There was one camera body, two film backs attached thereto (serially).
Thanks wiltw. The reply by reddesert probably obviates this. Or maybe illustrates it. It's the uncertain origin that gets me every time....
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Thanks reddesert. So the ISO and exposure compensation settings are passed to the AE finder via the two gold hemispherical contacts at the upper right of the film back ...?
For a while I had only one dark slide between two backs - which at first was a problem. Turns out (file this under more Bronica trivia) that there is a tiny metal nubbin (maybe your 'little sprung metal piece'?) on the bottom of the film back, near the dark slide handle, which when pressed allows the dark slide to be removed when the back is off the camera. To insert a dark slide into a loaded, off-camera back, press the nubbin in and insert the slide. Maybe this is common knowledge - but it took me a while to catch on.
Yes, your metal nubbin is the piece I was referring to. If you depress it (with back off camera of course) and slide the darkslide in and out, you can see the pin connector at lower right move in and out to indicate the presence of the darkslide to the camera.
The two electrical contacts at top are how the back passes film speed to the meter prism. I think it's just a variable resistor but don't know exactly. To put some numbers on it, I measured and with one back I get a resistance of about 1000 ohms when set to ISO 100 and 0 exposure comp. For every stop you change the film speed or exp comp, the resistance changes by about 200 ohms. You could measure your two backs with an ohmmeter and see if there is a difference. I don't know what the "correct" value is, although a repair manual would likely say. I don't have a GS meter prism.
Well .... it turns out my GS-1 metering scene is pretty erratic. I got inconsistent results comparing the stock and Oleson screens, in a composed and artifically lit scene. Using the same lens, film back, ISO, aperture, lights and position. So - no help here on comparing screens.Let me know how it goes with the Oleson screen! I was actually thinking of getting a Maxwell split image screen for my P67II, but while chatting with Bill (a very long chat indeed, haha), he checked out the genuine P67II split image screen on eBay and saw that they're going for astronomical prices - around $700 for a split image screen! Anyway, he said that his would cost me around $500, to which I had to politely decline. :/
I checked out Rick Oleson's screens and it's nice to know that there are other focusing screens out there for sure.
Subjectively, the Oleson screen is much easier for me to use, mostly on account of the clarity of the central disk and the split screen feature. It also seems significantly brighter in general. So there's no question for me that using the Oleson screen is the best choice. Exactly what correction is needed to account for the additional throughput to the sensor remains a question - but I'll have to remedy my sensor situation before I can answer that question.
I checked with KEH about parts:
"Parts are limited or not available at all. If we did have the part/parts they would be good used parts but those can be hit or miss."
I'm awaiting confirmation from KEH that they have a working sensor and a working LED display in hand. However, I could buy two, maybe three, used finders for the price of the KEH repair. A crapshoot, I know, but that seems to be the story all over....
I asked KEH about repairing my Bronica GS-1 AE finder sensor, and the LED unit in the GS-1 body. After an email exchange, KEH indicates that "we do not have the parts for this nor are they able to be located at this time."
That leaves no repair/parts resources that I'm aware of, outside of buying used components (body, finder, backs etc) to replace defective ones, or to scavenge for parts to make repairs myself.
Using an external meter obviates the need to repair my LED display and sensor, so that's a plus. And not really an inconvenience, given that external metering is de rigueur for large format cameras, folding cameras, etc.
That leaves no repair/parts resources that I'm aware of, outside of buying used components (body, finder, backs etc) to replace defective ones, or to scavenge for parts to make repairs myself.
Using an external meter obviates the need to repair my LED display and sensor, so that's a plus. And not really an inconvenience, given that external metering is de rigueur for large format cameras, folding cameras, etc.
Yea, as I’ve been reading this thread I’ve thought the same, just use an external meter. I’m fine using in-camera TTL metering with 35mm SLR’s, but medium format and above I’m generally using a handheld meter even if TTL metering is available. For 12 exp a roll and about $1 per shot I am a lot more careful when I trip the shutter.
reddesert, I followed up on your excellent idea, on my three GS-1 6x7 film backs. They do show some variability, which would account for some of the metering inconsistency I've been experiencing. A plot attached, showing resistances that I measured at ISO 100, for exposure compensation settings -3 to +3, for three backs (red, blue and black lines). Your measurements would fit in nicely with the data for my three backs.
This is of pretty modest interest, I think - rather than establish a reference back and refering to a correction sheet in the field, I'd just use a spot meter. But it's good to know where errors are coming from, and what remedies might be sensible to pursue.
On the plot, the vertical axis is in kiloohms - the data are resistances that I measured at various exposure compensation settings (noted in a hand-waving way on the right hand side of the plot), for three film backs labeled R, Red and Blue.
A nice Bronica GS-1 kit has shown up today at home. My Pentax 67II still does not know it yet in case she gets jealous. The kit matchs very well my usual set of lenses with the Pentax (55, 105 and 200 mm).
Some thoughts after playing a little bit:
- Focusing screen: Dim, very dim compared to the Pentax and without any focusing aid. It is ok for the 100 mm but not for the 50 mm and 200 mm. If I keep it I will buy a Rick Oleson's.
- AE lock button: It is in a very uncomfortable place, perhaps I will get used to it.
- Filter diameter: Three lenses, three diferent filter diameter (72, 82 and 95 mm). Not cool.
- Double strock advance: With the grip. Seems it needs one for film advance and another for cocking the shutter and mirror return, both feel very smooth. Not really a problem but it slows down a bit compared Pentax 67 single stoke.
- Shutter operation: Quiter (still noisy) and smoother than the Pentax.
- Weigth and size: With AE prism and grip Bronica weight is very similar to a Pentax 67II, and with worse mass distribution. Both are similar in total width and height, Bronica has more length than the Pentax due to the modular design (body+back).
I am a big fan of Bronica SQ-Ai but this GS-1 clearly falls behind in terms of usability, at of course the same compared to a Pentax 67II. I did a quick test roll to be developed tomorrow to validate the working condition and more will come if there is no unpleasant surprises. At the end of the day image quality and reliability is what I care the most.
Some thoughts after playing a little bit:
- Focusing screen: Dim, very dim compared to the Pentax and without any focusing aid. It is ok for the 100 mm but not for the 50 mm and 200 mm. If I keep it I will buy a Rick Oleson's.
- AE lock button: It is in a very uncomfortable place, perhaps I will get used to it.
- Filter diameter: Three lenses, three diferent filter diameter (72, 82 and 95 mm). Not cool.
- Double strock advance: With the grip. Seems it needs one for film advance and another for cocking the shutter and mirror return, both feel very smooth. Not really a problem but it slows down a bit compared Pentax 67 single stoke.
- Shutter operation: Quiter (still noisy) and smoother than the Pentax.
- Weigth and size: With AE prism and grip Bronica weight is very similar to a Pentax 67II, and with worse mass distribution. Both are similar in total width and height, Bronica has more length than the Pentax due to the modular design (body+back).
I am a big fan of Bronica SQ-Ai but this GS-1 clearly falls behind in terms of usability, at of course the same compared to a Pentax 67II. I did a quick test roll to be developed tomorrow to validate the working condition and more will come if there is no unpleasant surprises. At the end of the day image quality and reliability is what I care the most.
Good luck with that kit! I selected the 65 and 150mm lenses, along with the G-36 teleconverter, as it gave me a good range in focal lengths and only 72mm filters.
Without the speed grip, I found the GS-1 awkward to handle with the prism finder - a strap + a waist level finder would have worked a bit more comfortably. The speed grip was the ticket to easy use for me.
As you might glean from earlier thread entries, the AE system gets mixed reviews. I'm curious to hear your impressions.
I use my GS-1 mostly for landscape work (hiking in the Rockies). I always have a tripod with me so that obviates the need for the speed grip (which I have). I have a 72mm polarizer from my digi cam lenses, but mostly use Cokin filters for the GS-1. The 50mm and 250mm lenses that I have are razor-sharp, as is the 110mm macro. I really love this camera.
Your first impressions of the GS-1 mimic mine. You won't be disappointed by the Oleson screen BTW. One thought: you got unlucky with the lens selection though. It just so happens that these 3 all have different filter diameters. Have you gone with the 65, 100 and 150 trio, the filters would have been the same.
Also, I would confirm @Tony-S assessment of the lenses. Never had any sharpness issues. But honestly, are there really bad medium format lenses from the 80s out there? Even much older systems like my Mamiya C220F comes with excellent lenses.
This kit is not an accident. I knew in advance the filter diameter discrepancy but I choose it anyway because is more or less what I am used to in my Pentax 67II (55, 105, 200). I don't know if 65 mm is wide enough for me and I love the PS 40 mm of SQ-A system, this 50 mm looks like its brother. I really like the compression of 200 mm in 6x7 (not only for portraits), I had the Pentax 67 165 mm f/2.8 and I sold it because I prefer the 200 mm f/4 perspective even it is one stop slower. My filters are all 77 mm, I can step up the 100 mm filter ring from 72 to 77 mm (already had an adapter from other lens) and I hope I can step down the 200 mm filter ring down from 82 to 77 mm. 50 mm is completely out of the question for filters.
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A couple of rolls done just to check the camera. It works, good thing, and I have found AE prism metering spot on. The secod time I hold the Bronica I felt more confortable than the first one, but AE lock button is still a pain to operate. It also helped me to have a first evaluation of the lenses.
100 mm bokeh is not so creamy than 105 mm f/2.4 wide open, Pentax 67 55mm f/4 is one of the sharpest lenses I have ever in my hands and almost unbeatable, Pentax 67 200 mm f/4 focus 0,5 meters closer than Bronica 200 mm. But I am still very pleased with the results. Bronica lenses render different from Pentax 67 lenses, they are smoother specially with color film and not so contrasty but sharp without reservations. And the whole kit has cost me less than one Pentax 67II body.
I am not deviating from thread tittle, I will keep the Bronica or the Pentax. One of them stays, the other goes. But I am in no hurry to decide and I will go back to the Pentax somewhere in this process to compare. Printing is also in the to-do list.
I share some very irrelevant photos to ilustrate my findings, taken in my flat in less than 10 minutes each roll. I apologize for the last photo...
B/W is HP5+ in and color is Portra 400, scanned in a Frontier 2500 and in a Nikon Super Coolscan 8000 ED respectively. B/W photos were shot wide open or very close to it, color photos were shot at f/11. 100 mm photos were shot at 1/60 second. General contrast and color balance adjusted in PS.
Zenzanon-PG 50 mm f/4.5
Zenzanon-PG 200 mm f/4.5
Zenzanon-PG 100 mm f/3.5
100 mm bokeh is not so creamy than 105 mm f/2.4 wide open, Pentax 67 55mm f/4 is one of the sharpest lenses I have ever in my hands and almost unbeatable, Pentax 67 200 mm f/4 focus 0,5 meters closer than Bronica 200 mm. But I am still very pleased with the results. Bronica lenses render different from Pentax 67 lenses, they are smoother specially with color film and not so contrasty but sharp without reservations. And the whole kit has cost me less than one Pentax 67II body.
I am not deviating from thread tittle, I will keep the Bronica or the Pentax. One of them stays, the other goes. But I am in no hurry to decide and I will go back to the Pentax somewhere in this process to compare. Printing is also in the to-do list.
I share some very irrelevant photos to ilustrate my findings, taken in my flat in less than 10 minutes each roll. I apologize for the last photo...
B/W is HP5+ in and color is Portra 400, scanned in a Frontier 2500 and in a Nikon Super Coolscan 8000 ED respectively. B/W photos were shot wide open or very close to it, color photos were shot at f/11. 100 mm photos were shot at 1/60 second. General contrast and color balance adjusted in PS.
Zenzanon-PG 50 mm f/4.5
Zenzanon-PG 200 mm f/4.5
Zenzanon-PG 100 mm f/3.5
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I put today Rick Oleson's Brightscreen MPD (split and microspism) in my GS-1 and I am surpised. It is equally dim than Bronica original and it doesn't need any exposure compensation (not required either in Oleson page). I got exactly the same AE prism readings with both screens.
Did the Oleson screens changed or I am missing something else?
Something else is going on here. Maybe the Pentax is just out of this world in terms of focusing screen brightness? I never used one, I don't know but I own 7 medium format cameras and none of them sport a brighter screen than the GS-1 native screen or Oleson's screen. Hasselblad AcuteMate, Mamiya TLRs, or the latest Rolleiflex FX/FW - none of them are brighter. The reason I recommended Oleson screen was their focusing aids.
I found the Oleson MPD screen dramatically superior to the matte screen supplied with my GS-1, for focusing purposes. The central area of the Olesun is much brighter than the matte screen, as is the Oleson microprism annulus. Outside the annulus, I don't recall that the difference was that pronounced. But I went from more or less guessing that the focus was close with the matte screen that came with my camera, to feeling that I could nail it with the Oleson.
My AE meter is wonky, so I can't help on a quantitative metering comparison.
I didn't notice much of a difference between the Oleson and my standard screen, but then I find my GS-1 screen plenty bright. I tried the Oleson screen for the focus aids which my Bronica screen doesn't have. I ended up switching back to the Bronica screen, which I like better. Maybe your mirror is dirty?
The name "Brightscreen" made me expect something generally brighter than orginal screen. Of course the focusing aids are very welcome and they already pay the replacement.
I have taken out the Pentax 67II for peace of mind and it is definitely and without any doubts much brighter than GS-1 with AE prism.
Is that at the same f-stop? The P105 is a stop faster than the GS 100, so the image on the same screen would be ... twice as bright.
The comparison was done with Zenzanon PG 200 mm f/4.5 and Pentax 67 SMC 200 mm f/4, both closed to f/5.6.
There is about 6 years between the two, so the screen technology probably did not change that much. There is a balance between brightness and focus-snap for manual focus, and that depends a lot on the designers preference at the time. I had the P67, but never tried the P67II, I did not find the older P67 screen any better than the GS1.
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