Pentax 67II vs. Bronica GS-1 - I can't keep both. Which one should I sell?

[manfrominternet]

I'm primarily an evening/night photographer and have been shooting this way for a few years. My first medium format camera is the massively underrated Bronica GS-1. In late 2020, I lucked out and bought one of the very last sealed/brand new GS-1 bodies in existence. At the same time, I also bought a practically unused/boxed GS-1 metered prism and an equally unused/boxed GS-1 grip. I also have the PG 50mm, PG 65mm, PG 100mm, PG 110mm Macro, and the PG 150mm lenses.

However, I noticed that the GS-1 prism's centered light meter fairly often underexposes the photographs I take. I almost always have to set the exposure compensation dial to +1, which is pretty annoying, actually. This is a nightmare for slide film. Also, the camera craps out when it's less than 40 degrees out. The GS-1's focusing screen runs too dim. Finally, I'm not entirely convinced that the GS-1 lenses are at the top of the heap - they're good, but I'm not sure if they're top tier. Those who own/owned a GS-1, did you find its lenses worse, equal, or better in image-producing quality to, say, any other 6x7 SLR system, particularly the Pentax 67/67II system? Nonetheless, I have taken some fantastic pictures with the GS-1 using an external light meter, and wouldn't hesitate at all to recommend it.

That said, I subsequently decided to try out the Pentax 67II, which has phenomenal metering capabilities, including Pentax's own matrix/spot metering. I bought a P67II of my own and, over time, added a bunch of the latest SMC-version lenses to the set, including the SMC 55-100mm f/4.5, SMC 90-180mm f/5.6, SMC 45mm f/4, SMC 55mm F/4, SMC 105mm f/2.4, SMC 165mm, and the SMC 200 f/4.

I've taken most of my best work with this camera set, however, I've been alerted to the problem of the Pentax 67II's shutter shake. The mirror lockup itself causes no problems, nor does the first curtain that opens the shutter, however, that last curtain that closes the shutter visibly shakes the camera. I use a Benro 3-Way Geared Head to hold up the camera, and I particularly notice the P67II shaking if the camera is in portrait orientation. When I see the processed negatives, I do notice that if any photograph was made in portrait orientation with any of the telephoto SMC lenses, that using any shutter speed from 8 seconds to 1/60th of a second - even with mirror lockup - there's some softness to the image. I suspect that this is tied to the unsteadiness of the Benro Geared Head.

Anyway, it's time for me to sell one of these great cameras. I can sell the Pentax 67II set, keep the Bronica GS-1 and make do with whatever faults lie with the GS-1, including the near-constant underexposure, dim focusing screen, possibly-faulty lenses, but also keep the GS-1 for its ability to stay rock steady using its mirror lockup with its leaf shutter lenses at any speed, bulb or otherwise.

I could also sell my Bronica GS-1 and keep my large my Pentax 67II set. However, if I do, I suspect that I would need to purchase an extremely solid ball head to help negate the shutter shake, seeing as the Benro 3-Way Geared Head isn't really doing a good job of keeping my P67II steady. I don't really know what's causing this telephoto image softness, but the shutter's rapid closing between 8 seconds and 1/60th of a second seems to be a possible culprit. I'm sure one of you guys know what's actually causing this shutter shake/camera shake, and if it actually is the last shutter curtain closing causing the problem or not.

My question for you more experienced photographers is, given what I've written, which camera would you sell and which camera would you keep? Is there a reason why you think one camera system is better than the other?

Any suggestions here would be very greatly appreciated!

 

[mshchem]

Have you tried a leaf shutter lens with the Pentax?

 

[Steven Lee]

@manfrominternet I am not sure if I am one of those more experienced photographers, and I have never used the Pentax, so take my words with a grain of salt.

As a happy owner of the GS-1, I couldn't connect with your experience with this camera, especially the lenses. I own the 65mm, 110mm and 150mm. They are on par with my Hasselbad Zeiss lenses. To be honest I can't even take full advantage of them because I do not have access to high-end scanning equipment. In terms of resolution, my bottleneck is scanning - not lenses. I can only "enjoy" their resolving power by examining negatives on a light table with a high-powered loupe I wish I could share a 6,000 x 4,600px scan of Provia but Photrio can't handle files of that size.

I also suspect that perhaps the meter in your prism needs to be calibrated? GS-1 metering is obviously not in the same league as modern evaluative meters, but it's the same good ole center-weighted behavior not too different from Nikon FM3a or metered Leicas. Very predictable and consistent. I still rely on spot metering for shooting slides (for all cameras), but I'm perfectly happy with my color negative and B&W shots in AE mode.

Finally, I too wasn't too happy with the focusing screen. I have almost a dozen of other medium format cameras to compare it to and I wouldn't call it dim, it's actually brighter than average. My problem with it was that it just wasn't easy to focus with. It is similar to 1st generation of AcuteMate Hasselblad screens: everything appears sharp in it, as opposed to classic ground glass screens in old Rolleiflexes - those are really dim, but if there's enough light, subjects just snap into focus. I have replaced mine with Rick Oleson screen which I use in several cameras. Oleson screens offer a good compromise between brightness and ease of focusing.

Again, can't comment on your Pentax, but I would calibrate the meter on the GS-1 and swap the screen.

 

[reddesert]

I don't have an opinion about what you should sell, and have only used one of these systems personally. You've used both the systems, and can probably tell if you have more keepers from one system than the other. I do have opinions about procedure, especially given that you are shooting mostly from a tripod.

- For difficult to meter scenes, including night scenes, an external meter, or (gasp) a modern 35mm or digital SLR with matrix metering used as a light meter, may be better than a simple centerweighted meter. Or use the simple meter but always apply your knowledge of the scene to compensate.

- Looking at a picture of it, I don't think that Benro geared head is large enough to handle an MF SLR with a telephoto lens. Get a large, unfashionable head, such as the Bogen/Manfrotto 3047 pan head. If you use a very long lens a lot, you may want to get a telephoto lens support or tripod collar to move the mounting point closer to the balance point.

- People often get insecure about lens quality especially if the lens doesn't have Z---- or L---- stamped on it. It's my guess that nearly all modern medium format lenses are very sharp once stopped down a little. On a tripod, work at f/8 or f/11 (you might need it for DOF anyway) and don't worry.

I think the metering technique and the camera support matter more than lenses, generally.

 

[skylight1b]

Just reading what you wrote, it sounds like you don't really like using the Bronica. For that reason alone, that would be the one I'd sell. The shake issue with the Pentax is also a relatively easy fix compared to all the things you don't like about the other system.

 

[tom williams]

However, I noticed that the GS-1 prism's centered light meter fairly often underexposes the photographs I take. I almost always have to set the exposure compensation dial to +1, which is pretty annoying, actually.

Depending on the scene, using the AE Prism Finder G I find that I need between +1 2/3 and +2 2/3 compensation. I'm not sure if the fault lies with the sensors in the finder, or in the camera body electronics. I also find that it's fairly easy to inadvertantly rotate the exposure compensation dial - if it's not at 0 - when loading/unloading the camera from my backpack. That's really annoying.

The GS-1's focusing screen runs too dim.

Yes! - I bought a Rick Oleson screen, which solved my focusing problems.

I also have difficulty seeing the LED readouts on sunny days. I have to keep my eye glued to the finder eyepiece for an uncomfortably long time for my eye to adapt to the extremely faint LED display. Indoors, it's much less of a problem.

Finally, I'm not entirely convinced that the GS-1 lenses are at the top of the heap - they're good, but I'm not sure if they're top tier. Those who own/owned a GS-1, did you find its lenses worse, equal, or better in image-producing quality to, say, any other 6x7 SLR system, particularly the Pentax 67/67II system? Nonetheless, I have taken some fantastic pictures with the GS-1 using an external light meter, and wouldn't hesitate at all to recommend it.

I have PG 65 and a PG 150, both very sharp. The 65mm needs a CLA, but I haven't located a shop qualified to service it. The Tamron shop in Canada said they would "give it a shot", but gave a warning that they were not familiar with the PG lenses, and thus could not guarantee their work.

I could also sell my Bronica GS-1 and keep my large my Pentax 67II set.

Given the footprint and the grip, the GS-1 is outstanding for me, ergonomically. I have handled but not used the Pentax, and would choose the GS-1 for handling on that slim basis.

Much as I like my GS-1, if I were to buy now, or face the choice you have, I would probably be turned away from the Bronica on account of the scarcity of parts and service options.

Good Luck!

cheers
Tom

 

[tom williams]

Again, can't comment on your Pentax, but I would calibrate the meter on the GS-1 and swap the screen.

Do you have any idea where calibration might be done?

 

[Steven Lee]

Do you have any idea where calibration might be done?

I do not. I would search archives here to see who works on Bronicas. Mine did not need any service, it was just like yours: unused when I got it a couple of years ago.

 

[polka]

I have used both of your cameras. The GS1 is much lighter to carry that the P67, but yes, focusing is easier with the P67 than with the GS1. I have also noticed that camera shake is essentially due to the shutter, not the mirror. But actually, the shutter flap happens at the end of travel of the first curtain and its vibrations shake the camera while the shutter is open. Stiffening of the tripod head will not solve the issue, what is needed is to add mass and more effectively damping.

I like to use the P67 handheld with its wooden hand grip on opposite side to the shutter release button. This way, I add both the mass of my body and the damping of my arms. Thus supressing effectively the camera vibrations, but I may add my own body unsteadiness at longer shutter speed. To help with this, I often simply use a monopod.

POLKa

 

[itsdoable]

I've had both a GS1 and a P67 (not the II unfortunately), and I kept the GS1. Of course I regret selling the P67, but I think that is true for any MF film camera I've sold ;(

I decided at some point years ago that I should pair down, and I had four 6x7 system (five if you count the Linhof Technika 67 backs).

The GS1 was smaller, lighter, and had an AE option. Leaf shutters for daylight flash sync (which I did back then). Changeable film backs.

GS1 lenses were sharp, although I know some people that did not like how they rendered. Some P67 lenses were softer, but I tended to show them at wider apertures. Where as, the GS1 lenses were consistent across the board. I thought the focus screen on the GS1 was better, but the view was brighter on the P67 as the lenses were faster.

My GS1 meter prism is accurate.

Shutter shake on the P67 happens on the closing curtain, after the exposure has been taken, so I don't think the softness you think you are seeing is from that - especially after an 8sec exposure.

You can adapt lenses on the P67 (I was not doing that back when I sold it),

My advice is to keep both

And if you have to sell one, keep the one that you like and use most. Both are really good systems.

 

[Tom Taylor]

I'm primarily an evening/night photographer and have been shooting this way for a few years. My first medium format camera is the massively underrated Bronica GS-1. In late 2020, I lucked out and bought one of the very last sealed/brand new GS-1 bodies in existence. At the same time, I also bought a practically unused/boxed GS-1 metered prism and an equally unused/boxed GS-1 grip. I also have the PG 50mm, PG 65mm, PG 100mm, PG 110mm Macro, and the PG 150mm lenses.
I've taken most of my best work with this camera set, however, I've been alerted to the problem of the Pentax 67II's shutter shake. The mirror lockup itself causes no problems, nor does the first curtain that opens the shutter, however, that last curtain that closes the shutter visibly shakes the camera. I use a Benro 3-Way Geared Head to hold up the camera, and I particularly notice the P67II shaking if the camera is in portrait orientation. When I see the processed negatives, I do notice that if any photograph was made in portrait orientation with any of the telephoto SMC lenses, that using any shutter speed from 8 seconds to 1/60th of a second - even with mirror lockup - there's some softness to the image. I suspect that this is tied to the unsteadiness of the Benro Geared Head.

I bought a P67II kit new from Smile Photo in NY (remember them) when the 67II first came out and paired it with a new Manfrotto 440 Carbon One tripod which I used until I wore out the tripod from the constant opening and breakdown of my style of shooting. Well, not actually wore it out, but ended-up breaking a small part off preventing one of the leg from staying spread at a specific place with the other legs. When using that tripod there was always a visible shake when the shutter closed whether or not MLU was actuated. However I never saw any corresponding vibration in the processed images and surmised that the vibration occurred when the shutter was closed to light. I replaced that tripod with a Gitzo G-1349 and Arca Swiss z1-sp ball head and the vibration became essentially invisible regardless of whether in landscape or portrait orientation even when the tripod was unbalanced because of terrain limitations and with the heavy 400mm Takumar attached in portrait orientation. Ditto when using the Manfrotto 393 Long Lens Support without MLU actuated. The 67II's weak spot is the film advance mechanism which will lock-up. I had it repaired twice while out on road trips and on the third instance sent it in to Pentax repair, then in Golden Colorado, who rebuilt the mechanism. No problems since except for the occasional need to clean the contacts.

 

[halfaman]

Pentax 67II is nowadays unrepairable and each body cost around $3000. Mine is broken with no Pentax official technical service or independent shop willing to even touch it. So I am not going to buy another one although I love it. Perhaps a Pentax 67 but no more 67II for me.

Bronica GS-1 is equally unrepairable but a body cost $400, so not big deal to replace it. On top of that the lenses, backs and other accesories are very affordable. Right now I am very tempted to switch to this system...

 

[btaylor]

Interesting responses to the OP’s experiences. I have not owned or used the Pentax (though have long admired it), but I do have a number of MF systems, and I never found the GS-1’s lenses to be lacking- I’ve got them all from 50mm to 250mm. They have shown themselves to be on par with what I have from Zeiss, Schneider or Mamiya. While I usually use a handheld meter I have found the metered prism on my GS-1 to be dead on accurate, including with slide film. You don’t specify what optical issues you are having with the GS-1, but if you are having issues it’s not because they are inherently of lesser quality. On an accurately exposed and focused image I can’t tell the difference between any of my modern MF lenses- they’re all pretty stellar, IMO. Exposure problems: it sounds like there is something wrong if you are getting such wildly inaccurate readings- I’ve never had any trouble. Is that new old stock body really okay? Between the leaf shutter and mirror dampening design I have never had a vibration issue while I have read many times that the Pentax suffers- but again I have no direct experience so can’t comment on that other than agreeing that a very sturdy head and tripod are always your friend. Monopods are great and are always an improvement over nothing at all. Good luck on your decision, I think they’re both great systems when they are working as designed.

 

[GregY]

My experience with Pentax 67. It was a dream (albeit a large one) handheld with shorter lenses, but even on my Ries with a Ries head and a lens support bracket i couldn't get a sharp enough negative to print a 16x20" with the 200 or 300mm. On the upside, it led me to by a Deardorff....& that took care of the issues.

 

[dave olson]

I have used a Pentax 67, not the 67II, for years. I have the AE metering prism and have found it accurate. To split hairs on metering accuracy a hand held meter is best.

 

[Randy Stewart]

I own an extensive Pentax 67 system. I have not used the Bronica. If you are mostly shooting long exposures at night, keep the Bronica. The problem you have with its under exposure prism is that you do not get your equipment serviced, which is a "You" problem, not an equipment fault. The leaf shutter lenses of the Bronica will serve you far better than the focal plane shutter of the Pentax. (No, the Pentax leaf shutter lenses are a pain in the ass to use regularly, so forget that.) You have a good diversity of Bronica lenses already. Your reliance on the Pentax 67 zooms (both of 'em) and the 105mm is IMO misplaced. (The zooms are monsters and very heavy. The 105mm is an overhyped, very pedestrian optic.) I love my 67II, but I have two 6x7 units, fully CLA'd and ready to go if it drops dead. You do not. As for the Bronica focusing screen, as someone else pointed out, there is an optical trade-off between brightness and easy of focus. If you don't like the balance struck by your screen, then change it. That is far cheaper than buying and dumping whole systems. Bronica lenses: As far as I know, they are pretty good. I think the PG class of lenses is the later, improved series, but the real issue is: What do you do with the images? If you are optically enlarging them to 16x20 prints, but not larger, I think any difference between the Bronica and Pentax lenses is just an irrelevant topic for conversation, or "mine is bigger than yours" nonsense. Frankly, all 6x7 lens systems, made post-war, are going to deliver all the image resolution and contrast you will ever need. If you are scanning your negatives for digital processing, (well, excuse me) you are delving into some fantasy of lens comparison, unless you are paying out $100 an image for drum scans. Anything less is not showing the capability of the lens. It is showing the compromises imposed by the scanner.

 

[manfrominternet]

I own an extensive Pentax 67 system. I have not used the Bronica. If you are mostly shooting long exposures at night, keep the Bronica. The problem you have with its under exposure prism is that you do not get your equipment serviced, which is a "You" problem, not an equipment fault. The leaf shutter lenses of the Bronica will serve you far better than the focal plane shutter of the Pentax. (No, the Pentax leaf shutter lenses are a pain in the ass to use regularly, so forget that.) You have a good diversity of Bronica lenses already. Your reliance on the Pentax 67 zooms (both of 'em) and the 105mm is IMO misplaced. (The zooms are monsters and very heavy. The 105mm is an overhyped, very pedestrian optic.) I love my 67II, but I have two 6x7 units, fully CLA'd and ready to go if it drops dead. You do not. As for the Bronica focusing screen, as someone else pointed out, there is an optical trade-off between brightness and easy of focus. If you don't like the balance struck by your screen, then change it. That is far cheaper than buying and dumping whole systems. Bronica lenses: As far as I know, they are pretty good. I think the PG class of lenses is the later, improved series, but the real issue is: What do you do with the images? If you are optically enlarging them to 16x20 prints, but not larger, I think any difference between the Bronica and Pentax lenses is just an irrelevant topic for conversation, or "mine is bigger than yours" nonsense. Frankly, all 6x7 lens systems, made post-war, are going to deliver all the image resolution and contrast you will ever need. If you are scanning your negatives for digital processing, (well, excuse me) you are delving into some fantasy of lens comparison, unless you are paying out $100 an image for drum scans. Anything less is not showing the capability of the lens. It is showing the compromises imposed by the scanner.

I should have mentioned this, but I didn't want to make you guys have to read through a tome - this is actually my second Bronica GS-1. I sold my first set (GS-1 body, AE finder, 120 film back, grip, 100mm lens) specifically because the same thing happened with my previous Bronica. (I made the new buyer aware of it.) So both my old Bronica GS-1 set and this brand new/old stock Bronica set have been underexposing practically all of my images. If you read what Tom Williams posted on this thread (his post is the 5th one down from my initial post), he said that "using the AE Prism Finder G I find that I need between +1 2/3 and +2 2/3 compensation. I'm not sure if the fault lies with the sensors in the finder, or in the camera body electronics."

So it's not just my Bronica. I wonder how many other GS-1 users have experienced this same problem with chronic GS-1 underexposure.

Does anyone know if it's possible that it's the battery that I'm using that's causing this chronic underexposure? (The battery that I'm using for my GS-1 is the Energizer 4LR44/A544 Alkaline, which is a 6 volt battery.) The Bronica GS-1 instruction vaguely states that the camera needs a "Single 6 volt silver oxide or alkaline-manganese battery." I read somewhere that was more specific on which battery to use:

Either a silver oxide battery (No. 544/PX28/4G13) or an alkaline manganese battery (A544/4LR44) is used with the Zenza Bronica GS-1.

Does anyone know if this will make a difference?

​

 

[tom williams]

I should have mentioned this, but I didn't want to make you guys have to read through a tome - this is actually my second Bronica GS-1. I sold my first set (GS-1 body, AE finder, 120 film back, grip, 100mm lens) specifically because the same thing happened with my previous Bronica. (I made the new buyer aware of it.) So both my old Bronica GS-1 set and this brand new/old stock Bronica set have been underexposing practically all of my images. If you read what Tom Williams posted on this thread (his post is the 5th one down from my initial post), he said that "using the AE Prism Finder G I find that I need between +1 2/3 and +2 2/3 compensation. I'm not sure if the fault lies with the sensors in the finder, or in the camera body electronics."

So it's not just my Bronica. I wonder how many other GS-1 users have experienced this same problem with chronic GS-1 underexposure.

Does anyone know if it's possible that it's the battery that I'm using that's causing this chronic underexposure? (The battery that I'm using for my GS-1 is the Energizer 4LR44/A544 Alkaline, which is a 6 volt battery.) The Bronica GS-1 instruction vaguely states that the camera needs a "Single 6 volt silver oxide or alkaline-manganese battery." I read somewhere that was more specific on which battery to use:

Either a silver oxide battery (No. 544/PX28/4G13) or an alkaline manganese battery (A544/4LR44) is used with the Zenza Bronica GS-1.

Does anyone know if this will make a difference?

​

I also use the 4LR44 battery. When I first noticed the need for exposure compensation in AE mode, I replaced the battery with another 4LR44 - to no good effect. I also checked the voltage on both batteries - both within 0.1V of 6 volts. You and I are having AE problems, and use the same battery, but as that battery type is explicitly called out in the user manual, I'm not thinking that I have a battery problem.

From post #16: The problem you have with its under exposure prism is that you do not get your equipment serviced, which is a "You" problem, not an equipment fault. - not particularly helpful. What might be helpful is a reference to a qualified service business. I'd love an opportunity to get my GS-1 into the hands of a qualified repair person, but Koh's no longer services the GS-1, and my only contact with Tamron wasn't helpful. I read in threads in this forum that Frank Marshman (aka Camera Wiz) might be a resource, but recent postings by members who used, or tried to use, Mr Marshman were discouraging. For me, the GS-1 physical configuration is enough of a plus to let the in-camera metering go - I have adequate external light meters.

 

[Klaus_H]

I am not a GS1 user but I use SQ/A and SQ/A i.
If the batteries (silver oxide or alkaline ) are fresh, there should not be a difference in the AE prism support, but if the batteries are not fresh, the silver oxide battery will deliver the energy more constant than the alkaline battery.
Use siver oxide batteries for the Bronica GS1!

 

[itsdoable]

I should have mentioned this, but I didn't want to make you guys have to read through a tome - this is actually my second Bronica GS-1. I sold my first set (GS-1 body, AE finder, 120 film back, grip, 100mm lens) specifically because the same thing happened with my previous Bronica. (I made the new buyer aware of it.) So both my old Bronica GS-1 set and this brand new/old stock Bronica set have been underexposing practically all of my images. If you read what Tom Williams posted on this thread (his post is the 5th one down from my initial post), he said that "using the AE Prism Finder G I find that I need between +1 2/3 and +2 2/3 compensation. I'm not sure if the fault lies with the sensors in the finder, or in the camera body electronics."

So it's not just my Bronica. I wonder how many other GS-1 users have experienced this same problem with chronic GS-1 underexposure.

<snip>

Tom also said:

Yes! - I bought a Rick Oleson screen, which solved my focusing problems.

A brighter screen will make the sensor in the finder under-expose - by the amount that the screen is brighter.


I have used lithium ion batteries in my GS1 without any problems. Bronica recommended Silver Oxide because they had better performance, and the AE prism had a higher demand on the batteries, so the alkaline versions did not last as long.

 

[btaylor]

Tom also said:



A brighter screen will make the sensor in the finder under-expose - by the amount that the screen is brighter.


I have used lithium ion batteries in my GS1 without any problems. Bronica recommended Silver Oxide because they had better performance, and the AE prism had a higher demand on the batteries, so the alkaline versions did not last as long.

I would always use the silver oxide battery, just takes one more variable out of the equation. I used to use the 6v alkaline cells in a dog collar and I found them to be inconsistent. I think they were often too old.

 

[wiltw]

waaay back, Bronica recommended Siver Oxide or Alkaline batteries. Later, after Tamron purchased Bronica, Tamron added Lithium batteries to the list for the ETRS...but they did not advise Lithium for the SQ-A, as the (IIRC) current supplied by the batteries was not sufficient for the SQ...and I do know know if Tamron ever said anything about Litium battery for GS-1

[edit] I found something on the web about Lithium in GS-1 https://www.photo.net/forums/topic/95266-batteries-for-bronica-gs-1/

"Posted April 15, 2004​

Donald:​

​

Bronica (Tamron) recommends against lithium cells for the GS-1 because they keep on functioning at reduced power rather than simply cutting out, resulting in unpredictable results late in the power cycle."​

 

[Tony-S]

I have used alkaline and silver oxide in my GS-1 and the AE Finder exposes just fine.

 

[tom williams]

A brighter screen will make the sensor in the finder under-expose - by the amount that the screen is brighter.

Duh! Obvious - now that you point it out. I'll check that out right away. Thanks itsdoable.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Third option: sell them both and get a Mamiya RZ67. It solves the problems of both systems: absolutely tack-sharp lenses, and enough mass and mirror dampening to be able to shoot hand-held at quite slow speeds. This was shot hand-held, pointed straight up, at 1/15th. The lens was the 50mm. Oh, and all lenses are leaf-shutter lenses so no second-curtain bounce to induce vibration.