Overhauling Kodak Panoram

[richard ide]

You might try matte surface polyester drawing film as a flexible 'ground glass' material. An art store should have it .

 

[B&Jdude]

Thanks Richard, I am not familiar with that drawing film, but I'll check our little local art & frame shop. If they don't stock it, they can surely order it.

"Why are there no speaker jacks on a stereo camera?" Well, most likely they are made to be used with ear buds rather than speakers!! ;o)

Well, gang, I plan to tear the 4C down again this coming weekend, and will be doing it regularly thereafter until I can do it in my sleep. If I keep doing that then maybe someday I'll know that I have arrived when I can disassemble and reassemble it in a film changing tent!

EuGene

 

[richard ide]

Should have thought of it earlier but tracing paper would also work

 

[Frank R]

Traditionally, I have used frosted scotch tape as a ground glass. Laying a few pieces across the opening for a conventional camera is no problem. The curved surface on a Panoram is a little trickier. Maybe use a very thin sheet of clear plastic and cover it with several strips of tape. Then bend it into place. The clear plastic sheet has to be thin enough so it does not affect the focal plane but stiff enough to remain taut when curved around the back. You can probably salvage a scrap from something like an envelope window (a big envelope window)

 

[B&Jdude]

Frank:

How about laying the frosted tape on the plastic strip, then curving the piece of plastic around the film track with the frosted side ot the tape facing the lens? That would put it directly on the film plane. Also, the image would be right on the frosted surface rather that coming at the frosted surface from the back side.

EuGene

 

[Frank R]

Frank:

How about laying the frosted tape on the plastic strip, then curving the piece of plastic around the film track with the frosted side ot the tape facing the lens? That would put it directly on the film plane. Also, the image would be right on the frosted surface rather that coming at the frosted surface from the back side.

EuGene

That was how I was picturing it.

 

[B&Jdude]

Wow! I just got a screwdriver that is perfect for reaching up into the Panoram (or tight spots on other things) without having to reach up in there with thumb and forefinger to turn a tiny screwdriver. I got on FleaBay, hit the Advanced Search button, and typed in "right angle screwdriver".

The thing came up with several ratchet types and a couple of those Z-shaped "bent" screwdrivers, then I spotted something that looked like a ordinary screwdriver with a black ball on the end. Well, I bought one, and just got it in today.

That ball on the end contains a pair of bevel gears that drive a standard 1/4" hex bit socket in a 1:1 ratio approx. 90 degrees from the direction of the screwdriver handle & shaft. The socket is magnetic to hold the bit in place. The tool comes with 2 phillips & 2 slotted bits, and the small slotted bit was a perfect fit on those 4 screws inside my 4C practice camera.

I played with it with fanatical glee, taking out and putting back those screws several times, then used it to open up and CLA two Packard shutters . . . of course the 4 screws holding them together are right out in the open, but that didn't matter. Watch out camera world, a fiend has been unleashed!

EuGene

 

[mhcfires]

Wow! I just got a screwdriver that is perfect for reaching up into the Panoram (or tight spots on other things) without having to reach up in there with thumb and forefinger to turn a tiny screwdriver. I got on FleaBay, hit the Advanced Search button, and typed in "right angle screwdriver".

The thing came up with several ratchet types and a couple of those Z-shaped "bent" screwdrivers, then I spotted something that looked like a ordinary screwdriver with a black ball on the end. Well, I bought one, and just got it in today.

That ball on the end contains a pair of bevel gears that drive a standard 1/4" hex bit socket in a 1:1 ratio approx. 90 degrees from the direction of the screwdriver handle & shaft. The socket is magnetic to hold the bit in place. The tool comes with 2 phillips & 2 slotted bits, and the small slotted bit was a perfect fit on those 4 screws inside my 4C practice camera.

I played with it with fanatical glee, taking out and putting back those screws several times, then used it to open up and CLA two Packard shutters . . . of course the 4 screws holding them together are right out in the open, but that didn't matter. Watch out camera world, a fiend has been unleashed!

EuGene

Sounds like you are having fun with your new toy (screwdriver). If you are careful in disassembling your "practice camera" you will have another useful camera if and when you get it back together. I have been trying to get a Panoram camera in any size, but I have been out of town and have missed out on a few on fleabay. There is presently a #5 Cirkut available, but I have a feeling that it will go for a dear price that I will not be able to match. Five inch aerial film is still available, hard to find, but it is out there. You could also slit it and use it in your #4 Panoram. Good luck in your endeavor with this camera project.

 

[B&Jdude]

mhcfires:

Yeah, I have been having a lot of fun with my new toy . . er . . . tool, as well as in learning how to work on the Panoram. Not to worry, though, as I won't mess it up. Actually I started with a Panoram that was completely jammed and with a frozen film winder and now have it working fine. All I really need to do is replace the bellows (which was worn out) and the bubble levels, and maybe work on its focus.

As for finding a Panoram to buy, they are quite common on that auction site, many times with 3 or 4 being listed simultaneously. Right now there is only one (a model 4B) listed on there. It seems that the model 4's have been selling for somewhere around $200 - $300, though the current listing has a $650 BIN. That is way overpriced, but then I don't trust anyone who advertises something as RARE, ANTIQUE, or COLLECTABLE, as those words are intended to snare the naive buyers . . . folks knowledgeable about stuff that is rare, antique, and collectable don't need to have those attributes pointed out to them!!

Those 3 words are generally much overused and abused, and much more likely to be thrown around in a scam deal rather than a legitimate transaction.

The Cirkut cameras generally do bring very high prices . . . about what a truck-load of Kodak Panorams would sell for . . . so don't expect to get that one for a Panoram-level price. The Cirkut is a much more mechanically complex professional type camera than the Panoram, and are still widely used as working cameras by both amateurs and professionals. Ones with deep pockets!

EuGene

 

[mhcfires]

mhcfires:

Y

The Cirkut cameras generally do bring very high prices . . . about what a truck-load of Kodak Panorams would sell for . . . so don't expect to get that one for a Panoram-level price. The Cirkut is a much more mechanically complex professional type camera than the Panoram, and are still widely used as working cameras by both amateurs and professionals. Ones with deep pockets!

EuGene

My pockets are not only not deep, but they are full of holes!

 

[B&Jdude]

Yeah, I can identify with that. I never measured the depth of my pockets, as they were bottomless . . . anything of value (like money!) that went into the pocket fell into a black hole, never to be seen again. Of course I have always tended to help matters along with my recurring G.A.S. attacks.

My dear mother (still kicking and mean as ever) always said that money burned a hole in my pocket. Mea culpa!

EuGene

 

[freygr]

Well besides plastic and frosted tape. You can use wax paper for ground glass or also a can of clear mat FIXER for charcoal sprayed on glass or plastic also works. MSC is a machine tool supply, lots of end mills and slot cutters etc., but they do carry some different things than McMaster Carr. I use those two and Mirco Fasteners, Link: http://www.microfasteners.com/, Micro-Tools, link: Dead Link Removed, and for hand tools, for wood working: Lee Valley Tools Link: http://www.leevalley.com/home.aspx

 

[B&Jdude]

freygr:

Yep, I tried out both of the micros . . . bought tiny #0 x 1/4" screws for the Panoram front plate and #2 x 56 pan head bolts for my Packard shutters from Micro Fasteners, and shutter cloth from Micro-Tools. I still haven't checked out MSC yet, but since I recently scarfed up an 18" tall mini milling machine, I want to check them out to see what sort of end mills, fly cutters, etc. I can get from them.

Anyhoo, I'm planning on trying my hand at replacing the bellows, using that velvet pigskin in front with a piece of the shutter cloth behind it to see how that works. That combination couldn't be any stiffer that the original felt/leather combo which was actually thicker and less flexible than the velvet pigskin.

EuGene

 

[Frank R]

I removed the front plate and bellows last night. The leather was incredibly thin and it did not seem to have an inner layer. Mine was torn in many places. I will have to reassemble the pieces to make a pattern.

Another possible source for an inner layer is to use a piece of the packaging from sheet film. It is the light proof black plastic envelope that is inside the double box. It is shiny but it won't have an effect due to the inner horn restricting the incoming light to a narrow strip of the film.

Whatever is used will have to be very thin and flexible so as not to restrict the movement of the lens.

 

[B&Jdude]

Frank:

I haven't thought about those black bags that hold sheet film, but they certainly would be good source for light proofing material, if the pastic isn't too stiff. I have a couple of those bags around here somewhere . . . and also some of the Porter Camera opaque bags . . . so I might try a piece of that stuff and see how it works. Thanks for the tip.

EuGene

 

[B&Jdude]

mhcfires:

Was that you that paid over $3,000 for that Cirkut on Flea Bay? I think I am going to have to just fix up my Panorams, 'cause one of those Cirkuts sell for more than my net worth!!

EuGene "Po' folk" Smith

 

[jamie young]

Cirkuts are much more complex and a lot less were made. I believe they made many thousands of panorams. They made a total of 400 #5 cirkuts. The #10 was most common with around 1900 made in the 40 years(!) of production The #16 was rarest with around 100 made for the many years it was available. It doesn't matter much since they really do different things.
I've been shooting with al vistas and like the results. The 5" al vistas are common enough to find. The baby al vistas are more uncommon, but fun. I was able to snag a 7" x15" format al vista for a reasonable amount, and love the results I get (http://jamieyoungphoto.com/AlVista photos 1.html), though film is problematic. I haven't had much luck with my panorams yet, but will try again sometime.

 

[B&Jdude]

Hey, Jamie. ". . . haven't had much luck with my panorams yet . . ." Does that mean you haven't bought them yet, or you have some but haven't gotten them to work yet? In either even, welcome to the DIY Panoram repair club!!

EuGene

 

[jamie young]

I have a few and have gone out and shot with a couple of them. My 4B images seemed really soft. I was havign a hard time getting decent exposures with my 1D, though i believe I ended up with a few images. Guess I just didn't like any of them. Ther 1D does tend o go faster on one side than the other. I will have to take it more seriously at some point. I have a 1D, 4B, 4D, and a 3A.(http://jamieyoungphoto.com/cameras panoram 1.html)

 

[B&Jdude]

Jamie:

I, too, have a 1D that swings faster to the left (away from the winder) than to the right (toward the winder) and I suspect it is a problem with the timing gear mechanism. Some, but not all, of the D models have the ratchet gear speed control at the bottom of the swing-lens shaft, and I understand they tend to behave like that as they wear. I am hesitant to try working on that mechanism since I don't know what I am doing and might damage something. So, I will probably just send it out to Ken Ruth at Photography on Bald Mountain . . . he's the expert on the Panorams.

I have a 4C that I am using to practice Panoram repair, but will probably sell it when I no longer use it for practice, as the 3 1/2" wide film one needs for it comes from those specialty places that sell old discontinued sizes and it's way too expensive for me. I'll stick with Model 1's that use good old cheap 120 film.

You probably have noticed as you read through this thread that there are several of us on here who are sharing our experiences as we work on our Panorams. One area that we haven't really gotten into yet is focus problems with the cameras.

I had one technician tell me that Panorams tend to make soft or fuzzy images because shrinkage of the wood causes the camera to focus beyond infinity. The standard repair for this is to shim the curved film track with narrow tape (something like automotive pin-striping tape). Another possibility is to slit some Teflon tape which will not only shim it, but will help the film to wind easier and keep it from binding and being pulled out of the track and down into the camera.

Glad to have you join us here and would like to hear of your experiences with the Panorams.

EuGene

 

[mhcfires]

mhcfires:

Was that you that paid over $3,000 for that Cirkut on Flea Bay? I think I am going to have to just fix up my Panorams, 'cause one of those Cirkuts sell for more than my net worth!!

EuGene "Po' folk" Smith

NO WAY! I couldn't believe that a Cirkut #5 would go for that much money. I thought it would go for about $1500 or so, but it went very dear in the money department. If I had that kind of money to burn I would be retired by now. . I still want a Panoram, but they are going for more than i can afford, or they are overpriced pieces of junk that even a termite would turn down. I'll get something yet, just have to wait my turn.

 

[B&Jdude]

mhcfires: Yes, I wrote off Cirkut cameras from my list long time ago because of the price. Not to say they aren't worth it, but they are out of my league. For the same reason, I drive a Dodge when I would prefer a Corniche or Maybach.

One can generally get a nice useable (read: Model 1 which will accept 120 film) Panoram for about $250 - $300. They generally will need some work to get the swing mechanism to operate reliably, and might need to have the bellows replaced or pinholes in it plugged with dots of black plastic rubber or silicone. Of course these repairs are the subject of this thread. You can also have it refurbished by one of the guys that specialize in Panoram repair, as previously mentioned.

Anyhoo, one can almost always find one or more Panorams on the auction block at Flea Bay. Sooner or later the very camera that you like, and a good price, will appear there. Good luck!

EuGene

 

[jamie young]

Wow- it (the #5 cirkut) went for that much? That is a lot. I couldn't go to completed items for some reason it look. Has the auction site turned off completed items search? I got mine for $1200 complete and working a few years back.
On the #4 panorams, you could probably use 4x10 film and use them as a single shot camera. Don't know if you need to trim it or not. I've used 7x17 sheet film for my al vista 7F with good luck, even though I only get a shot at a time.

 

[B&Jdude]

Jamie:

That #6 Cirkut (#280274707897) went for $3,032. Maybe you can go look at the listing, bid history, etc. by searching by the number, rather than doing a completed items type search.

If you look around, you might find a #6 for a lot less than the #5. Hint, hint.

EuGene

 

[mhcfires]

mhcfires: Yes, I wrote off Cirkut cameras from my list long time ago because of the price. Not to say they aren't worth it, but they are out of my league. For the same reason, I drive a Dodge when I would prefer a Corniche or Maybach.

One can generally get a nice useable (read: Model 1 which will accept 120 film) Panoram for about $250 - $300. They generally will need some work to get the swing mechanism to operate reliably, and might need to have the bellows replaced or pinholes in it plugged with dots of black plastic rubber or silicone. Of course these repairs are the subject of this thread. You can also have it refurbished by one of the guys that specialize in Panoram repair, as previously mentioned.

Anyhoo, one can almost always find one or more Panorams on the auction block at Flea Bay. Sooner or later the very camera that you like, and a good price, will appear there. Good luck!

EuGene

At the rate things are going, I'll have to wait til after the first of the year before I can afford to go after a Panoram. There is one available on ebay right now for $300, it is supposedly in good condition. I dunno.