News from the "analog revival"

[George Mann]

B. The trouble with quantization actually starts a good deal below the half-schooled mans “sacred” Nyquist frequency.
And then we haven’t started discussing how ADC and DACs are far from the perfected science that most people in the business would like you to believe.

I have been working for years to improve the dac process.

You hit the nail on the head with quantization. This is currently the weakest link in digital playback.

I have been working on a process to completely replace it, and bring other areas of improve that won't cost you $30k (Zanden 5000).

 

[flavio81]

Don't boost the bass too much or that needle is gonna pop out of the groove.

You haven't heard Telarc's "1812 overture" recording, then.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...Telarc's "1812 overture" recording...

With its real cannon shots. That's the CD I used as an acid test after replacing foam surrounds on my Allison CD9 woofers. Sounded great.

Why degrade the original digital recording by forcing vinyl to deal with it? Just listen to digital directly.

 

[Cholentpot]

You haven't heard Telarc's "1812 overture" recording, then.

With its real cannon shots. That's the CD I used as an acid test after replacing foam surrounds on my Allison CD9 woofers. Sounded great.

Why degrade the original digital recording by forcing vinyl to deal with it? Just listen to digital directly.

Nope, have not heard it. But if it has real cannon I'll have to find a copy.

 

[George Mann]

Why degrade the original digital recording by forcing vinyl to deal with it? Just listen to digital directly.

Telarc isn't the only source of this piece. Furthermore, true high end vinyl playback systems track such recordings effortlessly!

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...Telarc's "1812 overture" recording...

...Why degrade the original digital recording by forcing vinyl to deal with it? Just listen to digital directly.

Telarc isn't the only source of this piece...

Any other source of Telarc's 1812 recording is bootleg.

...true high end vinyl playback systems track such recordings effortlessly!

I predict your next claim will be that they also negate all the digital horribleness in Telarc's master recording.

 

[logan2z]

You haven't heard Telarc's "1812 overture" recording, then.

I actually have a copy of that. None of the turntable/tonearm/cartridge combinations I've played it on have ever failed to track the canon shots.

 

[MattKing]

You haven't heard Telarc's "1812 overture" recording, then.

With its real cannon shots.

Until recently, there used to be a semi-annual music festival at Powell River, BC - a smallish coastal community in the Sunshine Coast area of British Columbia.
Over the years they have had a lot of success attracting some very good classical and other musicians.
It is a real community affair, with the musicians billeted with residents and a lot of very promising young musicians to go along with some very well established international stars.
I'm told that a few years ago they had a particular good group that was able to put on a performance of the 1812 overture. At thre same time, in the waters nearby, there was a joint US and Canadian naval exercise, which included some US and Canadian destroyers.
One of the featured musicians had a good relationship with the US ambassador, and together with a lot of US and Canadian cooperation they were able to get the warships to fire their guns at just the right time in the overture - to the absolute surprise of almost everyone.
Now that is analog sound!

 

[flavio81]

I actually have a copy of that. None of the turntable/tonearm/cartridge combinations I've played it on have ever failed to track the canon shots.

My point exactly. Most of the cartridges I have had tracked that without problems. And it's LOUD bass, so LOUD it makes for a crazy, wide groove.

 

[flavio81]

With its real cannon shots. That's the CD I used as an acid test after replacing foam surrounds on my Allison CD9 woofers. Sounded great.

Why degrade the original digital recording by forcing vinyl to deal with it? Just listen to digital directly.

You degrade the recording when you play it in anything other than the original Soundstream 50KHz D/A converter, part of the system used to make the recording.

The way digital audio works, the closest the A/D and D/A are similar in everything including filters, the better the chance for really having a good reconstruction of the original sound.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if many DACs fail to give a better sound than the Telarc record (LP) on a comparison.

 

[Cholentpot]

Until recently, there used to be a semi-annual music festival at Powell River, BC - a smallish coastal community in the Sunshine Coast area of British Columbia.
Over the years they have had a lot of success attracting some very good classical and other musicians.
It is a real community affair, with the musicians billeted with residents and a lot of very promising young musicians to go along with some very well established international stars.
I'm told that a few years ago they had a particular good group that was able to put on a performance of the 1812 overture. At thre same time, in the waters nearby, there was a joint US and Canadian naval exercise, which included some US and Canadian destroyers.
One of the featured musicians had a good relationship with the US ambassador, and together with a lot of US and Canadian cooperation they were able to get the warships to fire their guns at just the right time in the overture - to the absolute surprise of almost everyone.
Now that is analog sound!

Cleveland Orchestra used real canon back when I was growing up. My Pops would take me and my sibs down to hear them play outdoors around the 4th. I went back a few years ago and the stopped using the canon. I am still disappointed.

 

[flavio81]

Cleveland Orchestra used real canon back when I was growing up. (...) I went back a few years ago and the stopped using the canon. I am still disappointed.

They switched to Nikon? Sony?

 

[MattKing]

They switched to Nikon? Sony?

Just think how upset flavio81 would have been if they switched to Olympus! The horror!

 

[flavio81]

Just think how upset flavio81 would have been if they switched to Olympus! The horror!

LOL

I'ts great when forumers remember your preferences and past posts.

But believe it or not, i'm a big fan of the Olympus compact cameras: The Pen series, the Trip 35, the 35RC...

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...I wouldn't be surprised at all if many DACs fail to give a better sound than the Telarc record (LP) on a comparison.

I would. I've heard a variety of DACs in many CD players. None of them imposed pops, ticks or swooshes.

 

[George Mann]

I would. I've heard a variety of DACs in many CD players. None of them imposed pops, ticks or swooshes.

Missing the forest thru the trees as usual!

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...I wouldn't be surprised at all if many DACs fail to give a better sound than the Telarc record (LP) on a comparison.

I would. I've heard a variety of DACs in many CD players. None of them imposed pops, ticks or swooshes.

Missing the forest thru the trees as usual!

Missing the orders of magnitude greater horribleness of pops, ticks and swooshes compared to quantization and/or DAC topology differences, as usual.

Assuming you know to whom you're replying is unwise.

 

[Arthurwg]

Getting back to photography for a moment, there seems to be a serious revival in India, of all places. Used film cameras are in demand, more film is available, and photo labs are spring up in many locations.

 

[138S]

B. The trouble with quantization actually starts a good deal below the half-schooled mans “sacred” Nyquist frequency.
And then we haven’t started discussing how ADC and DACs are far from the perfected science that most people in the business would like you to believe.

OK, but this is easy to address... You take a high end vynil reproduction, you record the signals digitally at 96khz or more, then you downsample to 44.1khz and you play it. Blind test have been made and specialized technicians could not tell what one passed through the digital recording-playback.

IMO at 44.1kHz we don't hear quantization, but we may hear a bad DAC, a bad digital edition or a bad amplifier, if setup is good enough.

 

[foc]

Getting back to photography for a moment, there seems to be a serious revival in India, of all places. Used film cameras are in demand, more film is available, and photo labs are spring up in many locations.

That's great news. Do you have any more info about it?
I often think we can often be very short /narrow sighted and think of our own location only (eg:" I never see a film camera when I am out/ there is no film revival where I live").
It is good to hear that the revival is happening in other places than our own. Maybe we need to get out and about a bit more and of course shoot more film ourselves.

Regarding audio recordings, cd's and vinyl etc, I would prefer if they were kept to a separate threat/discussion (no offence intended).

 

[Cholentpot]

They switched to Nikon? Sony?

The decided to go with an American manufacturer but they couldn't find any left.

 

[George Mann]

Missing the orders of magnitude greater horribleness of pops, ticks and swooshes compared to quantization and/or DAC topology differences, as usual.

Assuming you know to whom you're replying is unwise.

Believe me when I tell you that I know exactly what kind of Borg I am responding to!

 

[George Mann]

IMO at 44.1kHz we don't hear quantization

The only people who fail to hear it are those who are not sensitive to it!

 

[mshchem]

You haven't heard Telarc's "1812 overture" recording, then.

You can see the cannons on the grooves of the vinyl. I blew fuses, woofers. Never have heard that album on equipment that could handle it. It's crazy amazing.

 

[138S]

The only people who fail to hear it are those who are not sensitive to it!

IMO, no... Audiophiles use reference CDs for good reasons. https://www.audiophilia.com/reviews/2016/6/5/my-top-ten-references-cds-for-reviews

But if you are able to hear the 44.1kHz quantization then you can upsample to 192kHz.

See this: https://studiosoundmix.com/44-1khz-...192khz-what-should-i-be-recording-at-part-ii/


This has been tested long ago by the audiophile community with Hi End setups with blind tests. In a good/cheap HiFi (say $2000 gear) of course you will hear every sort of flaws (power supply ripples/noise, bad DAC...) but quantization. Some people confuse the switching of a sub-optimal Class-D amplifier or the lower spotify/apple quality of many recordings and compressions. Apple streams at 256kbits/, which is 128 per channel, if samples were of 16 bits then this would be 8Khz, but there is a compression allowing a better yield with not much loss. A CD is 44.1kHz with no compression...

George, I'm still sensitive to 14kHz. You may use this test, then just realize how loud you are able to hear at 12kHz or 14kHz



Of course a vynil reproduction has a footprint that depends on the cartidge, a "bad" valve/tube amplifier also has a footprint (we may like), a good valve amplifier is totally linear like a good Solid State Class B.

"Ultimately, the music producer decides whether the music sounds "audiophile" or not. This is where the focus should be."