News from the "analog revival"

[138S]

My Dad remembered riding with him once while he played a record. It was Raymond Scott's opinion that the inside of an automobile was an excellent listening environment.

I can be an excellent listening environment, if you can place the speakers in the right places.

Advantage of a car is that the "room" is very small and sound waves have many reflexions per second, so persistence of sound after the sound is produced is very short, the "waterfall" falls instantly, which can be compared to headphones fidelity that have little or none "room footprint".

But the car adds something very important for the sound image compared to headphones... headphones puts sound in the ear but we also hear through our body, our body works like an antenna capturing vibrations, and those vibrations are transmitted to the cranium to reach the cochlear fluid in the inner ear. This is a very important path for our hearing, and for the sound image, headphones won't deliver the same image than powerful speakers, if not all those high end speakers would have little sense... but they cannot be substituted by good headphones.

Also we have mechanoreceptors involved... https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/bass-the-physical-sensation-of-sound

So a car may have the no-room fidelity like earphones plus the through body sound sensation... Problem is placing speakers optimally and finding/conditioning the large volumes we may want behind the motors. Another drawback is that sound can be well balanced for a single seat only relative distance varies a lot from one seat to the others.

And yeah... neighbours won't complain...

 

[Agulliver]

You need to hear a regular "redbook" cd played on a SOTA player such as the Zanden, which shows us that they can sound better.

Yes, they do have less resolution than a well recorded and pressed record. But the biggest problem is in the standardized "redbook" dac designs.

Possible, though having made my own 16/44 recordings of live performances I still find that level of resolution wanting. Whereas the exact same musicians recorded on the exact same computer in the same studio with the same mics at 24/96 is a revelation.

At one point right at the end of the 80s I invested (well...cajoled my parents to be honest) in an expensive CD transport and DAC. I fiddled, tried everything I could...and ended up giving up on CDs and investing (myself) in a high quality turntable in 1991. I have it still. No doubt today's DACs are better, the one in my computer rig isn't bad...the one in my DVD recorder is capable of 24/192 and the difference between a CD and DVD-A of the same material is again like night and day.

Mind you...my humble Akai reel to reel can beat them all depending on material.

I have not heard a true high end audophile DAC in a long time....so I cannot comment....but for a format which we were told was "perfect" and the playback equipment wasn't important....it's sure turned out to be difficult to get the best out of it.

 

[138S]

I have not heard a true high end audophile DAC in a long time....

It happens that today's "budget" DACs in the under $500 range may be better or equal than many of the High End audiophile DACs made (say) a decade ago.

If you go to the $1000 to 2000 segment then... you have things like the sweet Border Patrol http://www.borderpatrol.net/DAC.htm or the Chord Hugo series... Technology advances...

Electronics advance at fast pace... Today, a late model cell phone has at least x4 more computer power than all of NASA back in 1969, when it placed two astronauts on the moon.

 

[Cholentpot]

Know what?

You're all bonkers.

Nothing will ever sound better than my mediocre guitar skills on my LTD Tele being played through a sweating Fender Tweedy. Well...maybe if I can ever get my hands on a Thinline.

Live music or GTFO.

 

[George Mann]

Live music or GTFO.

But still electronically produced. A good unamplified symphony orchestra in a good concert hall will trump it every time!

 

[Cholentpot]

But still electronically produced. A good unamplified symphony orchestra in a good concert hall will trump it every time!

Fine.

My Takamine I got on sale back when black Friday was still something, it has a blemished paint job on the neck. Played in my bathroom.

Beats everything!

Except I can only really play part of Blackbird.

 

[138S]

Nothing will ever sound better than my mediocre guitar skills on my LTD Tele being played through a sweating Fender Tweedy. Well...maybe if I can ever get my hands on a Thinline.

Live music or GTFO.

Les Paul... Les Paul... (or Polsfuss) this is the guitar, yeah

 

[Agulliver]

I have a friend who will always say that his favourite genre of music is "live".

Having discovered the local jazz and blues club early in 2019 and attended over 50 concerts there before lockdown I can say he has a point. And though it's a small club where (pre-Covid) we sat just three feet from some of the musicians (feet could stretch out onto the edge of the stage, trombones needed to be placed carefully) it was still amplified electronically. It helped that the resident sound engineer is really good at his job. When an act brings it's own trusted engineer I don't think it's ever as good as the local guy. But he's probably the exception.

Thinking of analogue revival, I shot film pretty much every time I went there...and will again when it reopens. All bar two acts talked with me after the show or even in the intermission to ask if I was shooting film, and if they could see the photos when they were ready. The club owner is a professional photographer himself, though he hasn't shot film in a while. The general conversation was that they could tell I was doing something different to the digital pics usually taken by gig-goers and they were curious. A few musicians are themselves also photographers using film and it inspired them to photograph their own bands on film. Several then used my photos in promotional material and one has as an album cover. I am quite pleased that in 2020, there's an album out there where the cover photo was shot on a 1960s Yashica rangefinder, hand processed HP5+ by a gig-goer who had no desire to shoot an album cover. It's one of those moments in time, captured on film in a way that perhaps digital doesn't do quite as well. I had 24 exposures that night. Not a 64Gb card to fill.

 

[Cholentpot]

Les Paul... Les Paul... (or Polsfuss) this is the guitar, yeah

How's the snapped headstock working out for ya?

I have a friend who will always say that his favourite genre of music is "live".

Having discovered the local jazz and blues club early in 2019 and attended over 50 concerts there before lockdown I can say he has a point. And though it's a small club where (pre-Covid) we sat just three feet from some of the musicians (feet could stretch out onto the edge of the stage, trombones needed to be placed carefully) it was still amplified electronically. It helped that the resident sound engineer is really good at his job. When an act brings it's own trusted engineer I don't think it's ever as good as the local guy. But he's probably the exception.

Thinking of analogue revival, I shot film pretty much every time I went there...and will again when it reopens. All bar two acts talked with me after the show or even in the intermission to ask if I was shooting film, and if they could see the photos when they were ready. The club owner is a professional photographer himself, though he hasn't shot film in a while. The general conversation was that they could tell I was doing something different to the digital pics usually taken by gig-goers and they were curious. A few musicians are themselves also photographers using film and it inspired them to photograph their own bands on film. Several then used my photos in promotional material and one has as an album cover. I am quite pleased that in 2020, there's an album out there where the cover photo was shot on a 1960s Yashica rangefinder, hand processed HP5+ by a gig-goer who had no desire to shoot an album cover. It's one of those moments in time, captured on film in a way that perhaps digital doesn't do quite as well. I had 24 exposures that night. Not a 64Gb card to fill.

I've been rolling up to events with 2 exposures to make, maybe 4 if I carry an extra holder. Sure I'm carrying a point and shoot in my pocket too, it's just funny when someone says 'That's it?'

Yep. Two.

 

[138S]

How's the snapped headstock working out for ya?

Anyway, I was thinking that Bonamassa's favourite was a Les Paul... but it is a 1951 Nocaster

https://www.guitarworld.com/news/joe-bonamassa-reveals-the-best-guitar-in-his-incredible-collection

 

[Cholentpot]

Anyway, I was thinking that Bonamassa's favourite was a Les Paul... but it is a 1951 Nocaster

https://www.guitarworld.com/news/joe-bonamassa-reveals-the-best-guitar-in-his-incredible-collection

Yes, the humbucker in the neck slot. Just like my LTD.

 

[Agulliver]

I've been rolling up to events with 2 exposures to make, maybe 4 if I carry an extra holder. Sure I'm carrying a point and shoot in my pocket too, it's just funny when someone says 'That's it?'

Yep. Two.

A few months ago I was out in fields shooting some photos on a quarter plate camera....I had four plates and holders....so four shots. One other human was in the field and had observed me in recent times using a variety of cameras....but the notion of something on which I could only take four photos before developing the plates was quite alien to her.

 

[Arthurwg]

Getting back to photography for a moment, there seems to be a serious revival in India, of all places. Used film cameras are in demand, more film is available, and photo labs are spring up in many locations.

That's great news. Do you have any more info about it?
I often think we can often be very short /narrow sighted and think of our own location only (eg:" I never see a film camera when I am out/ there is no film revival where I live").
It is good to hear that the revival is happening in other places than our own. Maybe we need to get out and about a bit more and of course shoot more film ourselves.

Have a look at Facebook, "Film Photography India." There are other places on the Web with more information.

 

[Agulliver]

The thing I notice is that there's definitely a general analogue revival where I live and specifically a film revival. People's attitudes to my preferred method of listening to music (vinyl, tape, FM) and my use of film have changed in recent years. I am no longer thought of as a luddite or a madman. But I also see this revival when I travel (when that was permitted)....in people using film cameras whenever I go to another town or country...in the increased availability of film and then the shortage of colour negative film....in the increased availability of vinyl records and in numbers of people browsing in record shops. When I talk to the staff at camera shops (and record shops) they all tell me the same....that sales have been upwards for a few years - often to their surprise.

 

[KenS]

If Kodak... or someone... comes out with a "real" infra-red film, like HIE, then I will know then that analogue has been truly revived. Time to pick up a new turn table, too!

IF.. it also comes in 4x5/8x10 inch, I'll be the first in line for a few boxes (even if it means I have to get a new bank loan.. since I do not use 35mm any more.

Ken

 

[flavio81]

Possible, though having made my own 16/44 recordings of live performances I still find that level of resolution wanting. Whereas the exact same musicians recorded on the exact same computer in the same studio with the same mics at 24/96 is a revelation..

Most likely.

In any case the quality of the source, in my experience as a music lover, matters much more than the source being analog or digital. For this reason (or perhaps other reasons), the same recording found on TIDAL (web) versus the same recording from the original LP played on my turntable, sounds inferior; the turntable giving more realistic and "purer" sound.

I have a pretty good turntable btw; a modified Lenco L75 with double latter and a SME 3009/III tonearm.

 

[Kino]

Call me what you will, but I'll take the sound of a Stereo Nagra with a Schoeps mic set any day over a digital whatever field recorder with any mic for dialog recording.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Today I was reminded of this post from last October:

Typical AES Borg! Your system is far from good enough to here what either format is capable of!...

Finally, I might be able to here [sic] what vinyl and/or CDs are capable of:

https://www.humanspeakers.com/human/products.htm (scroll to bottom)

https://www.humanspeakers.com/human/inhuman.htm​

The only remaining challenges to achieving perfection in reproduced sound are waiting for the concrete foundation of my dedicated listening room to be poured and cure, deciding whether to go for domestic marble/granite or the somewhat more expensive imported alabaster cabinets, and, finally, dealing with cooling/electrical contractors so the 4kW of amplification per speaker doesn't result in overheating and fire.

 

[Snowfire]

If Kodak... or someone... comes out with a "real" infra-red film, like HIE, then I will know then that analogue has been truly revived. Time to pick up a new turn table, too!

HIE was a product for scientific and technical applications. That market is never coming
back. Artistic use alone never justified the existence of hyperspecialized products such as that.

 

[Helge]

HIE was a product for scientific and technical applications. That market is never coming
back. Artistic use alone never justified the existence of hyperspecialized products such as that.

People forget the problems with HIE.

- It’s was quite expensive.
- It needed loading in darkness.
- It needed an absolutely IR light-tight camera. (Not a given).
- Unloading and storage needed to happen in darkness too preferably.
- It’s was sub Tri-X in resolution.
- The halation was there whether you liked it or not.
- There was real problems with achieving good focus if you weren’t trained. And even then…
- You could not, not shoot IR with it.

Aviphot (Adox and “Rollei”) and SFX solves the above by just not having the sensitivity or extension. But you can in fact achieve very good IR results, as evidenced by numerous examples online.
EI’s of 6 to 12 with a 720nm filter are similar to, or not that far off from other IR films of the past. And fast enough for handheld in daylight shoots.

And
You can speed the film up a bit at the same time as achieving a bit of a halation effect by washing the film pre-exposure, thereby washing the anti-halation dye off.
You dry the film quickly by ending the wash with a swish of pure alcohol.

Preflashing and latensification is of course also tools to tame the contrast and up the speed of the film, but that goes for almost any film.

Firing on all above cylinders I achieved what I believe (no densitometer) is an IR EI of 25 with a 720 filter on Superpan 200.
A healthy amount of fog but full shadow information at appropriate settings.

Getting even more foolish I tried putting tinfoil on the packing paper on some random lengths, and it actually had quite a visible effect. It was too much bother to do repeatedly though.

I should try making some silver nitrate to see if that could up the speed even further.

 

[Sirius Glass]

HIE was a product for scientific and technical applications. That market is never coming
back. Artistic use alone never justified the existence of hyperspecialized products such as that.

HIE and IR Ektachrome were developed for the US Government military and intelligence agencies and subsides for decades as a national asset to keep the product and technology available. When budget cuts got too deep, digital IR imagery were deemed good enough and the decision to cut the financial support to keep HIE and IR Ektachrome production operational. Without the support of the government, Kodak did not have the market to keep those films in production.

 

[TheGreatGasMaskMan]

Just a random thought…
Wouldn’t IR slide need it’s own specialized equipment?

 

[Helge]

Just a random thought…
Wouldn’t IR slide need it’s own specialized equipment?

Why would that be? You develop as normal, bleach and re-expose.

 

[TheGreatGasMaskMan]

Why would that be? You develop as normal, bleach and re-expose.

For manufacturing, not for developing.
my apologies for not clarifying.

 

[Helge]

For manufacturing, not for developing.
my apologies for not clarifying.

All the Aviphot derivatives are suited for reversal…