New (as of 2019) airport CT scanners

[Sean]

I was trying to find info from shipping companies if they xray or ct scan all packages. I haven't found much but did see this from one fedex facility:

“FedEx in conjunction with the authorities are field X-raying all the packages one at a time,” the employee said. “From then on, we will be doing bulk X-rays of entire trailers.”

I'm not sure if they will ever move to ct based technologies. If so, how would film and paper be distributed globally?

 

[traveler_101]

Yes, one might see this as another piece of the assault by modern computer imaging on analogue technology. The only way to deal with this problem is to organise as a single voice. Seems daunting: is there an association of film producers who could gather evidence and make a case to the various responsible authorities to treat film carefully/differently whether dispatched in packages or carried aboard airliners?

 

[ITD]

Maybe it would be useful to maintain a list of airports where these scanners have been seen to be installed? Sounds like AMS is now a no-go for film and I believe that they’re due in LHR by 2022: https://www.businessinsider.com/london-heathrow-airport-scanning-technology-liquids-2019-6

 

[pentaxuser]

I'm not sure if they will ever move to ct based technologies. If so, how would film and paper be distributed globally?

Unless there are some signs that the film companies will talk to each other about this problem and then act as a body then maybe the best thing will be the threat for all film to be scanned by ct technologies and at that point the film companies will presumably act when staring ruin in the face

pentaxuser

 

[AgX]

I was trying to find info from shipping companies if they xray or ct scan all packages.

Customs authorities X-ray too.
German custom authority declared that they X-ray both, parcels and letters from overseas and such from within Europe. However they admit that they have not got the manpower to X-ray each and every item, so they take just samples, 2-3% overall.

Of course we do not know about the features of a posting that cranks up the probability that ones posting is X-rayed, the probability thus may be much higher!

 

[BrianShaw]

I would hope (but not bet or assume) that there is some sort of “trusted shipper” program that allows commercial shipment of sensitive materials without damage by customs or other government entities.

 

[AgX]

That should (only) apply on shipments from a manufacturer, like a whole container that is checked by customs at the plant and then sealed.

 

[Sean]

AI + machine learning will = all packages scanned in the very near future I think:

A group of computer scientists at University College London (UCL), led by Lewis Griffin, may soon speed up the process by employing artificial intelligence. Dr Griffin is being sponsored by Rapiscan to create software that uses machine-learning techniques to scan the x-ray images. Thomas Rogers, a member of the UCL team, estimates that it takes a human operator about ten minutes to examine each X-ray. The UCL system can do it in 3.5 seconds.

An entire shipping container..

 

[traveler_101]

Ironically, after all of the hand-wringing about the inadequate DEMAND for film, it might in the end be the inability to SUPPLY film across borders that does us in.

 

[pentaxuser]

Anyone thought of writing to say Ilford and Kodak?

pentaxuser

 

[BrianShaw]

Anyone thought of writing to say Ilford and Kodak?

pentaxuser

Someone posted a Kodak Alaris response about 2 or 3 weeks ago. It was clearly written by a public relations person who didn’t have information to offer, but had to say something so said something without meaningful substance.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I have a friend who is a part of the new scanners development and roll out project at TSA. I asked him if it would damage film, he said he didn't know and wanted to know which types of radiation are damaging to film so he could check. I said I wasn't sure. What should I tell him so he can find out for us?

 

[Prest_400]

Anyone thought of writing to say Ilford and Kodak?

pentaxuser

Yesterday I forwarded acroell's post to Harman Tech Service. I got a reply from Neil about Ilford being on discussions with Heathrow, with a plan of experiments and testing.

Let's see. In a way this topic seems akin to one of those dystopias due the control. I am aware of how US TSA has hand checks as allowed procedure but this seems to be different in the EU.

 

[wiltw]

I have a friend who is a part of the new scanners development and roll out project at TSA. I asked him if it would damage film, he said he didn't know and wanted to know which types of radiation are damaging to film so he could check. I said I wasn't sure. What should I tell him so he can find out for us?

As has been published for decades by Kodak
1. Carry-on baggage Xray scanners used at Security is safe for multiple passes of ISO 400 film
2. Checked luggage is subjected to CT scanners which WILL damage all film.

This 2003 article by Kodak gives a lot of detail about the characteristics of damage by CT. https://www.kodak.com/global/en/service/tib/tib5201.shtml

And Kodak Alaris has indeed issued a warning about the new scanners, in Oct 2019 https://kosmofoto.com/2019/10/kodak-updates-film-care-recommendations-and-confirms-ct-scanner-issue/

So the questions to have your friend answer is,

1. "Will the CT screeners being adopted at various airports for use on CARRY-ON baggage, result in fogging of film? or is it 'guaranteed safe' for film rated ISO 400 or lower?"
2. "Will the CT screeners being adopted at various airports for use on CARRY-ON baggage, result in fogging of film? or is it 'guaranteed safe' for film rated ISO 800 and higher?"

 

[AgX]

I am not much interested in what Kosmophoto says, but in what Kodak/Kodak Alaris say.

There is no new statement from Kodak.

Here is the new information sheet from Kodak Alaris
https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/uat/files/wysiwyg/pro/CIS_E30.pdf


The crucial, new part (underlining by me):

"When you travel by commercial airline, your checked luggage is commonly subjected to x-ray examination by a CT (Computed Tomography) scanner. Many airport security departments are now investing in additional CT scanners for carry-on bags, with a goal of eventually having the machines at every security checkpoint. To avoid any danger of fogging unprocessed film, always hand-carry your film - including loaded cameras - and always request a visual inspection at the airport security check point.

The hint at the new technology is veiled in two sentences in same paper amongst other data sheets, and even there worded for the average reader, used to "safe" scanners, that a new risk not really becomes clear.
Furthermorew their advice is of no effect at many airports.

 

[pentaxuser]

AgX, surely you missed the part in the KA statement that said something like: "As a result of the likely increasing use of CT scanners for hand luggage and the practice of refusing hand inspection in European airports by security personnel, KA has already made representation to airport authorities to change their policy and instruct their personnel to do hand inspections"

In this statement KA seems to feel that as long as it warns travellers to request hand inspection then that is the end of its responsibility.

Yes I admit a small touch if British irony here

pentaxuser

 

[AgX]

AgX, surely you missed the part in the KA statement that said something like: ...

That statement is not in the advice sheet.
Where is it ??

We are discussing this since 2 1/2 months and today statements appear... they must have been well hidden.

 

[wiltw]

That statement is not in the advice sheet.
Where is it ??

We are discussing this since 2 1/2 months and today statements appear... they must have been well hidden.

Indeed, a Google Advanced search for the exact wording,

• "CT scanners for hand luggage and the practice of refusing hand inspection in European airports by security personnel, KA has already made representation to airport authorities " could NOT be found in any web posting.
• Same failure for the Google Advanced search, "to airport authorities to change their policy and instruct their personnel to do hand inspections"

 

[BrianShaw]

I believe that was British humour at work...

 

[pentaxuser]

I believe that was British humour at work...

Give that man a prize. Sorry folks I did mention a touch of British irony as a warning. I was making the point that as things are KA in its statement which was no doubt accurately reported by AgX, seems to believe it has no responsibility to contact airport authorities to advise them that unless they do mandate hand inspections this new technology will ruin its products

pentaxuser

 

[traveler_101]

Give that man a prize. Sorry folks I did mention a touch of British irony as a warning. I was making the point that as things are KA in its statement which was no doubt accurately reported by AgX, seems to believe it has no responsibility to contact airport authorities to advise them that unless they do mandate hand inspections this new technology will ruin its products

pentaxuser

I would say it is closer to sarcasm than irony. It would be ironic if could assume, as in decades past, that Kodak is on top of its game and has almost certainly addressed the problem. Sadly those days are gone. Kodak and KA are rolling with the punches like the rest of us - more or less. Wish they could get their act together - and perhaps they will in time . After all, the problem has just recently surfaced.

In the meantime it may be possible to avoid airports where the CT scanners have been installed. We have a list of where the new tech is in use or being tried in the US. https://www.tsa.gov/computed-tomography
Is there anything like that list in Europe? So far we have testimony that it is at Amsterdam and Milan. Also not due at Heathrow until 2022. Any other information?

 

[acroell]

I have a friend who is a part of the new scanners development and roll out project at TSA. I asked him if it would damage film, he said he didn't know and wanted to know which types of radiation are damaging to film so he could check. I said I wasn't sure. What should I tell him so he can find out for us?

Obviously, all X-rays do affect film, it is a matter of dosage and to a smaller extent wavelength whether it shows up or not. TSA or the manufacturers would need to run some tests similar to what I did and measure density changes.

 

[drpsilver]

In the meantime it may be possible to avoid airports where the CT scanners have been installed. We have a list of where the new tech is in use or being tried in the US. https://www.tsa.gov/computed-tomography
Is there anything like that list in Europe? So far we have testimony that it is at Amsterdam and Milan. Also not due at Heathrow until 2022. Any other information?

05 Jan 2020

Taveler_101:

Thanks for the TSA link. I will be traveling to Kona, Hawai'i later this month from San Jose, CA. Neither of these airports are on the above list. However, it is only a matter of time before San Jose (SJC) will get this technology.

At this point my film photo days in Europe have ended. I am sure B/W processing is available in Switzerland (where my wife has family), so I might still be able to do sone analog photography there. In all my domestic travels the TSA has been good about hand inspection of film (35mm and 120). I have no experience with tern TSA regarding sheet film. I am also very interested in how film will be shipped without being destroyed.

This has been a very interesting thread. Thank you for whomever started it.

Regards,
Darwin

 

[traveler_101]

05 Jan 2020

Taveler_101:

Thanks for the TSA link. I will be traveling to Kona, Hawai'i later this month from San Jose, CA. Neither of these airports are on the above list. However, it is only a matter of time before San Jose (SJC) will get this technology.

At this point my film photo days in Europe have ended. I am sure B/W processing is available in Switzerland (where my wife has family), so I might still be able to do sone analog photography there. In all my domestic travels the TSA has been good about hand inspection of film (35mm and 120). I have no experience with tern TSA regarding sheet film. I am also very interested in how film will be shipped without being destroyed.

This has been a very interesting thread. Thank you for whomever started it.

Regards,
Darwin

Looks like my film days while travelling may be ending too - though the prospect seems somewhat brighter for when I am traveling in the USA than here in Europe. I agree TSA can be very cooperative - as in positive experiences I had requesting hand checking years ago at LAX and MCO (Orlando), but then there is ORD (Chicago O'Hare). Last spring I went through there again. The new scanners weren't installed then so I was not asking for a hand check of film, but I witnessed the most incredible spectacle: a tongue-lashing of a passenger by a TSA officer - one female to another. It was completely one-sided against the passenger for not following procedure - which she probably didn't understand because procedures are not clearly explained. I don't know exactly what brought down the ire of the TSA employee. My point is at some airports TSA is unprofessional, presumptuous and down right rude - the Chicago victim is an extreme example of a general problem at some airports. The issue calls into question reliance on hand checking. Suppose I had had to ask that TSA officer to hand check my film? I think she would have bitten my head off. I wish there were a printed card issued by TSA that could be shown to TSA officers.

 

[AgX]

I am also very interested in how film will be shipped without being destroyed.

The risk of shipped film being destroyed by X-raying is not new. One can assume that there the same technologies are applied as with checked luggage.
A small online film-dealer already years ago confirmed at least one case of film he sent overseas having got destroyed by x-raying.
And as I hinted at, postings even within Europe are X-rayed.