Modified 6x6 TLR to 6x3

Cholentpot · May 31, 2023

I figured this can use its own thread.

In the forever chase to get an Xpan look I stumbled across folks who've modified a 6x6 TLR with baffles to shoot what amounts as a half-frame 6x6. I've tried a few methods that have and haven't worked. Eventually I got one that works consistently. I installed baffles in a Ricohflex VII and marked the backing paper for 24 shots by marking the halfway point between shots on the back of the backing paper. I then rolled up some Agfa Aviphot 200 and aligned the markings using the red dot window.

Camera

Results

Obviously I need to work on framing but the results are proof of concept.

My next step is I need to upgrade the camera. The Ricoh has 3 shutter settings aside from B. 25, 50, and 100. It's very limiting. The lens isn't very good and the viewfinder, I've seen better. However it does have one advantage. The film carrying assembly box comes out and that allows me to install the baffles easily without a hassle.

Can anyone point me to another TLR that has this kind of system? While I'd love to install baffles in my Mamiya C3 and use the 65mm lens, I'm not sure if it'll work out as well. And the red window on the back of the Mamiya is quite small.

mshchem · May 31, 2023

And people think I'm nuts!

I can dig it!

Cholentpot · May 31, 2023

mshchem said:
And people think I'm nuts! I can dig it!

Oh I admit that I may have gone a little overboard but it worked! I can't afford an Xpan.

I took the back lid off the Mamiya C3 and removed the lens. I think with the right material I can get some baffles in there. It should work. Anyone have a 55mm C series lens? That should give me closer to the Xpan focal. For now I'll settle with the 65 if I get the system working.

Meanwhile here's another shot from the Ricohflex

grahamp · May 31, 2023

If you are going to mask a Mamiya C you need to make allowances for the lens change baffle, You don't want to displace the baffles with a lens change. If you are not going to change the film advance and stick to 12 on 120, I would just mask the finder if you are doing your own printing.

The red window on the Mamiyaflex and the C2 was a 'film loaded' indicator. Both have frame counters and advance stops, as do all the later models in the series.

Romanko · Jun 1, 2023

Cholentpot said:
I then rolled up some Agfa Aviphot 200

Where did you get it in 120 format?

Have you considered using 35 mm film? Rolleiflexes and Flexarets had adapters for shooting cine film. The obvious problem is that your "panoramic" frame will be vertical. I can imagine shooting a landscape with a Rolleiflex loaded with 35 mm film! On the positive side, you don't need any frame masks.
Does it need to be a TLR camera? The modifications could be easier with a folding 6x6 or even 6x4.5 camera. I've seen people shooting panoramic frames in their Hasselblads and Bronicas. There is also Praktisix, Pentax 67 and similar systems with interchangeable lenses.

MCB18 · Jun 1, 2023

Romanko said:
Where did you get it in 120 format?

He (and I) are some of the few folks in the world practicing the dark arts of cutting down 70mm film and hand-rolling it into 120/220 film. Definitely worth it if you’re willing to put time into it.

mshchem · Jun 1, 2023

Cholentpot said:
Oh I admit that I may have gone a little overboard but it worked! I can't afford an Xpan.

I took the back lid off the Mamiya C3 and removed the lens. I think with the right material I can get some baffles in there. It should work. Anyone have a 55mm C series lens? That should give me closer to the Xpan focal. For now I'll settle with the 65 if I get the system working.

Meanwhile here's another shot from the Ricohflex

I think I would keep shooting what you have put together.

You're getting some nice sharp, great contrast images.

reddesert · Jun 1, 2023

The choice limiting issue, to me, is that your method relies on red window frame counting and non-auto cocking (or at least being able to wind halfway and defeat double exposure prevention). If you want a better lens/shutter/finder, you need a camera that combines a better lens with relatively primitive film winding, and that cuts the options down.

For example, the Yashica-A uses a red window, but it also has the few-speed shutter. There might be another Ricoh TLR (Ricohflex, Diacord, ?) that happens to have a better lens/shutter and still retain the red window. The Mamiyaflex C2 series (not the C3 which has auto cocking) is a possibility but I don't think the red window is really meant to count frames with; you could try calibrating/guessing how much to wind each half of a frame.

Some of these cameras took a focal plane mask to shoot 35mm, and where that fits you can probably fit a similar mask for 3x6.

Romanko · Jun 1, 2023

MCB18 said:
the dark arts of cutting down 70mm film

.. no pun intended

MCB18 · Jun 1, 2023

Romanko said:
.. no pun intended

Hah! No, didn’t mean to make a pun.

neilt3 · Jun 1, 2023

What focal length lens / angle if view does the Xpan use ?
Apart from the Mamiya TLRs with interchangeable lenses , you might struggle to replicate the view .
You can get a wideangle ( and telephoto) adapter in bayonet 1 fit for such as Rollie's, Minolta and Yashica TLRs .
As your cropping the corners of the usual image circle , one of those might make things easier for you rather than trying to alter the frame advance on cameras like the Mamiya.

For panoramic shots like this I'm just using my Bronica ETRSi's with either the fisheye lens , 40mm or 50mm and cropping the negative , with not a lot of waste .
I've also got the 135 backs in both wide and normal , though that's narrower than the 6x3 your after .

Don_ih · Jun 1, 2023

This would work well with a Mamiya Press if you had an extra dark slide and cut it in half. You could put the dark slide in, take one photo, then flip the dark slide over for the next photo. Something like this:

Romanko · Jun 1, 2023

Don Heisz said:
This would work well with a Mamiya Press

or any other camera with interchangeable film backs. This is a brilliant idea! It does require some discipline to remember and swap the dark slide after each shot.

Dan Daniel · Jun 1, 2023

Don Heisz said:
This would work well with a Mamiya Press if you had an extra dark slide and cut it in half. You could put the dark slide in, take one photo, then flip the dark slide over for the next photo. Something like this:

That is nice! With a 6x9 back, you can do 3x9s. Not sure if it would work for Mamiya backs, but I had some Graflex 120 backs for 6x9 cameras that had no dark slides. Bought some 4x5 dark slides for a low price on Ebay. A little time on the band saw, a little sandpaper, and voila- dark slide for 6x9. Well, might be a source for dark slides to hack holes into (or as for me, dark slides to make old holders usable).

The Rolleicord Va and Vb have an insert for the back to convert it to 4.5 x 6. You could easily pop that in and out as you wanted, modify as you want. There is a double exposure override. The counter shows enough that you could probably eyeball half frames... or use the 16 frame counter and have large frame spacing. Half-frame TLRs, gotta love it.

baachitraka · Jun 1, 2023

Cholentpot · Jun 1, 2023

grahamp said:
If you are going to mask a Mamiya C you need to make allowances for the lens change baffle, You don't want to displace the baffles with a lens change. If you are not going to change the film advance and stick to 12 on 120, I would just mask the finder if you are doing your own printing.

The red window on the Mamiyaflex and the C2 was a 'film loaded' indicator. Both have frame counters and advance stops, as do all the later models in the series.

I've had the baffle in mind. Looks like the cardboard baffles I want to install will clear the lens change baffle.

Romanko said:
Where did you get it in 120 format?

Have you considered using 35 mm film? Rolleiflexes and Flexarets had adapters for shooting cine film. The obvious problem is that your "panoramic" frame will be vertical. I can imagine shooting a landscape with a Rolleiflex loaded with 35 mm film! On the positive side, you don't need any frame masks.
Does it need to be a TLR camera? The modifications could be easier with a folding 6x6 or even 6x4.5 camera. I've seen people shooting panoramic frames in their Hasselblads and Bronicas. There is also Praktisix, Pentax 67 and similar systems with interchangeable lenses.

Slit down 70mm in the dark.

I've done 35mm through a 120 camera. I'm not looking for a vertical pano though. For that look a 127 TLR is best though. And I have done that too.

MCB18 said:
He (and I) are some of the few folks in the world practicing the dark arts of cutting down 70mm film and hand-rolling it into 120/220 film. Definitely worth it if you’re willing to put time into it.

Right on

Don Heisz said:
This would work well with a Mamiya Press if you had an extra dark slide and cut it in half. You could put the dark slide in, take one photo, then flip the dark slide over for the next photo. Something like this:
View attachment 340328

I did this with a Crown Graphic. It worked well and the results were excellent. I had to give up after getting the thing repaired a few times and the RF just won't stay true. I don't have the skill to adjust it so for now the Graflex sits on a shelf most of the time.

reddesert said:
The choice limiting issue, to me, is that your method relies on red window frame counting and non-auto cocking (or at least being able to wind halfway and defeat double exposure prevention). If you want a better lens/shutter/finder, you need a camera that combines a better lens with relatively primitive film winding, and that cuts the options down.

For example, the Yashica-A uses a red window, but it also has the few-speed shutter. There might be another Ricoh TLR (Ricohflex, Diacord, ?) that happens to have a better lens/shutter and still retain the red window. The Mamiyaflex C2 series (not the C3 which has auto cocking) is a possibility but I don't think the red window is really meant to count frames with; you could try calibrating/guessing how much to wind each half of a frame.

Some of these cameras took a focal plane mask to shoot 35mm, and where that fits you can probably fit a similar mask for 3x6.

I have a Yashica A. I tried installing baffles and it didn't go well. Might be time to try again. The C3 does not auto cock the shutter, I'm thinking it's a good idea because I can put the 65mm on it and get a wider frame, also putting a frameline mask on the C3 is really easy. Just pop off the top, put some cardboard down and put top back on. Bob's yer uncle.

Dan Daniel said:
That is nice! With a 6x9 back, you can do 3x9s. Not sure if it would work for Mamiya backs, but I had some Graflex 120 backs for 6x9 cameras that had no dark slides. Bought some 4x5 dark slides for a low price on Ebay. A little time on the band saw, a little sandpaper, and voila- dark slide for 6x9. Well, might be a source for dark slides to hack holes into (or as for me, dark slides to make old holders usable).

The Rolleicord Va and Vb have an insert for the back to convert it to 4.5 x 6. You could easily pop that in and out as you wanted, modify as you want. There is a double exposure override. The counter shows enough that you could probably eyeball half frames... or use the 16 frame counter and have large frame spacing. Half-frame TLRs, gotta love it.

I have a Rolleicord III I think, I wonder if the 645 back would fit in it.

Cholentpot · Jun 1, 2023

Next question is who has a 3D printer that can knock out an insert? Might be the best way to go.

Cholentpot · Jun 1, 2023

mshchem said:
I think I would keep shooting what you have put together.

You're getting some nice sharp, great contrast images.

Thanks! I have another roll in there now. I widened the baffles a bit, I think I can get a bit more photo in frame judging by the amount of space between frames.

k.hendrik · Jun 1, 2023

page 2 from an older thread;

Mamiya RZ67 Back 120 / 24 Exp (?!) - weird problem

The pressure plate, looks large/normal sized to me (aren't the pressure plates identical for all formats?): I noticed that there are empty holes for screws, 2 on each side. Maybe this is where the correct (or any other) mask would be / had been attached. My regular 120 back is loaded...

www.photrio.com

happy shooting

Donald Qualls · Jun 1, 2023

Don Heisz said:
This would work well with a Mamiya Press

This would also work with any Graflex 2x3 Graflok mount roll film back on an RB67. For the Mamiya backs you'd have to dance with the double exposure lever, and it's simpler to just load 35 mm film in a 220 back with the two pieces of the turn around roller joined (a drop of medium super glue worked on mine). Things have come together in my head, I'm going to make up a couple test rolls but I believe I've come up with a way to change film in the field with this setup without needing a changing bag to unload/rewind.

I really want to try the 24x68 frame with a 50 mm and 0.45x filter. Wider than Xpan...

Cholentpot · Jun 1, 2023

Donald Qualls said:
This would also work with any Graflex 2x3 Graflok mount roll film back on an RB67. For the Mamiya backs you'd have to dance with the double exposure lever, and it's simpler to just load 35 mm film in a 220 back with the two pieces of the turn around roller joined (a drop of medium super glue worked on mine). Things have come together in my head, I'm going to make up a couple test rolls but I believe I've come up with a way to change film in the field with this setup without needing a changing bag to unload/rewind.

I really want to try the 24x68 frame with a 50 mm and 0.45x filter. Wider than Xpan...

I've rolled 35mm through a 6x9 back on my Century Graphic 2x3. I've even put 16mm through it for super duper wide. This is the advantage and joy of film. If it fits, it works. I've been putting 16mm through a few SLRs over the past few years and slapping on a 24mm lens for some pano shots.

Donald Qualls · Jun 1, 2023

Cholentpot said:
35mm through a 6x9 back on my Century Graphic 2x3.

Right, but since these are turns-counters, won't your spacing tend to decrease as the film thickness doesn't build up at the rate the cam is cut for? The RB67 220 back is a length counter, driven by the turn-around roller nearest the supply spool.

Cholentpot · Jun 1, 2023

Donald Qualls said:
Right, but since these are turns-counters, won't your spacing tend to decrease as the film thickness doesn't build up at the rate the cam is cut for? The RB67 220 back is a length counter, driven by the turn-around roller nearest the supply spool.

I honestly don't remember. Photos came out nicely though.

k.hendrik said:
page 2 from an older thread;

Mamiya RZ67 Back 120 / 24 Exp (?!) - weird problem

The pressure plate, looks large/normal sized to me (aren't the pressure plates identical for all formats?): I noticed that there are empty holes for screws, 2 on each side. Maybe this is where the correct (or any other) mask would be / had been attached. My regular 120 back is loaded...

www.photrio.com

happy shooting

So there's precedence for this tomfoolery.

Cholentpot · Jun 1, 2023

Here's the Mamiya C3 baffled up. I'm using a new method, it's cardboard from a coke can box with double sided tape. I think this might work for the Yashica A too. A few issues with the C3 though, that red window is super small and you can miss the spot very easily when cranking.

How ever, baffling up the viewfinder was really easy.

It's not perfect but it should do the job. If this method of baffling works I'm going to try the Yashica next.

blee1996 · Jun 1, 2023

Converting a 6x9 folder is a good idea, since it only needs to mask a small portion of top and bottom (3.75x9) to make 2.39:1 anamorphic ratio. And it is compact enough to bring along trip. There are high quality lens choices out there, together with red window. But the focal length will be limited to 90-105mm.

Mamiya C3 is good since you can get 55mm and 65mm lens to get wider angle view. And I see you already made it working for you.

Another high quality TLR with red window is Ikoflex with Tessar. They are quite inexpensive nowadays, and quite compact.

I tried 35mm panorama in Pentax 6x7 with 45mm lens, and it is seriously high quality. I can imagine it matches XPan. And you get all kind of lens options, and WSIWYG. But it is big, heavy and bulky.

My current "cheaper" and "light" panoramic camera for travel is Belair 6x12 with Belairgon 114/8 glass lens. Unfortunately the lens is not easy to source nowadays. And I plan to hack a Holga 120 Pan camera to use a tiny 90mm large format lens.

Modified 6x6 TLR to 6x3

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency