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Minimum Quantity of Perceptol Needed

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Arvee

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This is really no different from D-76. The recommendation from Kodak is 250ml/80 sq. inches. If using 1:1, 250ml stock plus 250ml H2O for a single 36 exp roll of 35mm. Anchell recommends even more (350ml/80) to guarantee properly/fully developed negs.

I personally don't get all the machinations to develop a roll in the least amount of developer possible to save a few pennies, always at the expense of the quality of the negative. I don't know, the world just doesn't make sense anymore!
 
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Sal Santamaura

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...explanation as to why there is no 1 or 2L tanks, namely that Ilford never meant Perceptol to be used at any dilution...
I'm not sure what Ilford's alleged intentions have to do with available tank sizes. Also, HARMAN's developing tables for many of its films include times for diluted Perceptol.

There are Jobo 2500-series film reel-compatible tanks perfectly capable of holding at least 1.5 liter:


HARMAN doesn't make tanks, although it does apparently distribute Paterson tanks.
 

Sal Santamaura

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This is really no different than D-76. The recommendation from Kodak is 250ml/80 sq. inches. If using 1:1, 250ml stock plus 250ml H2O for a single 36 exp roll of 35mm. Anchell recommends even more (350ml/80) to guarantee properly/fully developed negs.

I personally don't get all the machinations to develop a roll in the least amount of developer possible to save a few pennies, always at the expense of the quality of the negative. I don't know, the world just doesn't make sense anymore!
Exactly. Other metol-based developers, including, for example, D-23, all need the same 250ml of stock solution per 80 square inches of film.
 

hacked - sepiareverb

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I have long used Perceptol at 1:1 to develop four rolls of 135-36 in a 1L tank. I use this on ORWO UN-54 as my standard developer and to pull HP5+ to 50 in extreme high contrast situations. This would be 125mL per roll, and has delivered normal negatives on the UN-54 without fail. The pulled negatives were heavily bracketed as there were bare light bulbs in the images, and I nearly always managed something printable.
 
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MattKing

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Yet Ilford mentions dilutions of 1+1 and 1+3 but based on Billy's explanation I'd have thought that if 1L of liquid is needed for its 1+3 dilution then Ilford would chose to recognise that no tank exists
Almost all of us here mostly use individual tanks to develop small numbers of films.
But that isn't the entire world.
People do use larger, commercial size tanks to develop commercial quantities of film. So it is a mistake to assume that the factors that restrict us necessarily serve as a restriction for everyone, in the same way as they restrict us.
I do almost all my film development in 1 litre Paterson tanks.
There are a fair few here who develop sheet film in much larger tanks as well.
 

MattKing

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Out of curiosity, is there any existing protocol for using Perceptol in a replenishment regime?
 

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Slixtiesix

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Out of curiosity, is there any existing protocol for using Perceptol in a replenishment regime?

I remember that Ilford used to offer a replenisher in the past. Literature from the 80s still mentions it, but it has not been sold for many years now.
 
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pentaxuser

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As do I. And as different folks testing bears out a different conclusion so often, test for yourself.
I do hope that Billy gets an answer soon from Ilford. I know I said there is really nothing more to be said but as the thread I started has nearly fallen off the Photrio list, I now feel remorse in the same way that people feel when they commit curmudgeonly "Old Uncle Harry" to a residential home and realise that he may remain there completely forgotten. :D

pentaxuser
 

Sal Santamaura

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...same way that people feel when they commit curmudgeonly "Old Uncle Harry" to a residential home and realise that he may remain there completely forgotten...
Have no concern. The question has come up repeatedly in numerous threads since APUG's inception and will continue to spawn similar threads for as long as Sean keeps PHOTRIO alive. The answer won't matter; there's too much 'belief' involved. :smile:
 
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pentaxuser

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Have no concern. The question has come up repeatedly in numerous threads since APUG's inception and will continue to spawn similar threads for as long as Sean keeps PHOTRIO alive. The answer won't matter; there's too much 'belief' involved. :smile:
Thanks. I am much relieved at hearing those kind, prophetic words

pentaxuser
 

Billy Axeman

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I'm still following this thread and post the answer from Ilford when (if) it comes.

In the mean time to prevent 'falling this thread off the Photrio list' perhaps something related for people who want to reduce grain.

I saw an interesting comment on the Roger and Francis web site (Photo School, chapter 'Choosing films') where they say:

"You will generally get finer grain from a slow film in a speed-increasing developer than from a fast film in a fine-grain developer, and the working speed may not be that different. For example, Ilford FP4 in Ilford Microphen or a similar speed-increasing developer can come as close to ISO 200 as makes no difference, while Ilford HP5 Plus in a fine-grain developer is unlikely to exceed ISO 250 or at most 320 and may drop to 200."

In this case we could substitute 'fine-grain developer' by Perceptol to make this concrete.
For the sake of completeness, Perceptol is an example of a speed-decreasing developer and Microphen is speed-increasing.
 
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Odot

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OK, now i am super confused:

If i have a 1:1 full strength solution of Perceotol 1 Liter, how many films can i develop? Also, does it have to be one big development orgy or can i continue developing another day as well (until the limit is reached)?
 

mnemosyne

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OK, now i am super confused:

If i have a 1:1 full strength solution of Perceotol 1 Liter, how many films can i develop? Also, does it have to be one big development orgy or can i continue developing another day as well (until the limit is reached)?

Maybe this helps. It is taken from the Microdol X tech sheet. AFAIK Perceptol is very similar to Microdol-X

microdolx.jpg
 

Billy Axeman

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OK, now i am super confused:

If i have a 1:1 full strength solution of Perceotol 1 Liter, how many films can i develop? Also, does it have to be one big development orgy or can i continue developing another day as well (until the limit is reached)?

Full strength is the stock solution (1+0, 1 litre) as you make it from the powder. It has a life span of about 6 months.

Ilford only mentions a capacity of 4 films in the PDF datasheet, but some people here think it is for reused stock only and that a diluted developer (1+1 or 1+3) has a higher capacity (70 ml minimum for one film).

This has to be answered yet.
 
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pentaxuser

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Well summed up Billy and your link to Roger and Frances is worth thinking about. In their opinion the likes of FP4+ in Microphen delivers finer grain at say 200 than HP5+ in Perceptol at the equivalent speed. Unless you really have the light conditions for a lot of the time for a fine grain film, say at 50 in a fine grain developer, thus making it possibly slower, then it might be better to change film rather than developer.

However I digress. The key point of this thread is an attempt to relay what Ilford had to say to me and to ascertain whether its reply to you differs from its reply to me.

pentaxuser
 

Odot

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Full strength is the stock solution (1+0, 1 litre) as you make it from the powder. It has a life span of about 6 months.

Ilford only mentions a capacity of 4 films in the PDF datasheet, but some people here think it is for reused stock only and that a diluted developer (1+1 or 1+3) has a higher capacity (70 ml minimum for one film).

This has to be answered yet.

70 ml of what? 1+0 solution? As you already know, i need 290ml of developer minimum for a roll.
 

hacked - sepiareverb

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Well this will keep the thread on the new posts list.

The question is what Ilford recommends around whether one can develop a single roll of 135-36 (8x10 equivalent) at 1:1 in a single roll tank ( which would use 150mL of stock solution), and whether one can develop a single roll at 1:3 in a single roll tank ( which would use 75 mL of stock solution).

We are wondering about the official line on the minimum volume of stock developer needed in the tank for each roll when Perceptol is used in diluted form.

In reading over the data sheet again, I don’t see anywhere that Ilford lists a minimum quantity of developer per roll. The Microdol-X tech sheet posted above indicates that 150mL is the minimum volume for a single roll as a single 35mm roll developed at 1:3 dilution should be run in a 500mL tank, which was correct in my experience. I have found Microdol-X and Perceptol interchangeable in my darkroom, when I made the change to Perceptol no developing times changed at all. I used to run Plus-X in Microdol-X at 1:3, but since moving to Perceptol and UN-54 I have found 1:1 gives better overall results, and not because I used a tank that was too small with 1:3 dilutions. I am actually about to do some experimenting with Perceptol at 1:3 and FP4 since recently printing a couple of old Plus-X in Microdol-X 1:3 negatives.
 
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pentaxuser

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70 ml of what? 1+0 solution? As you already know, i need 290ml of developer minimum for a roll.
70ml is allegedly the minimum Perceptol Stock solution needed to develop one roll of film, be that 135 or 120. A stock solution is the quantity of Solution that the maker's instructions instruct you to make. In Perceptol's case this is 1L. Yes film requires a certain minimum of liquid to cover it in the tank For example a 135 might require 250ml in a Jobo or Durst tank and 300 in a Paterson tank. So if you wish to use stock only you need 250/300 mls or in you case 290ml. However if you wish to use 1+3 dilution then you need 72.5mls of stock plus 217.5 mls of plain water.

1+0 = stock only

Does this clarify matters?

pentaxuser
 
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pentaxuser

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Picture the scene, if you will: This thread has now been on Photrio for 40 years. llford had completely forgotten to give us an answer but a British Court of Inquiry, more powerful than that which investigated a former U.S. president's alleged campaign links to the Kremlin, called senior but contrite Ilford executives to its presence.

As a form of restitution stemming from Court of Inquiry, Ilford has agreed to call all Photrio parties to its headquarters at Mobberley at its expense. As many are from the U.S. and are fascinated by British tradition, Ilford has hired the head "Town Crier" from "The Ancient Order of Town Criers" to read out the announcement.

A few ancient and infirm Photrio members have made their way from the U.S. These were the youngsters of 40 years previously who had taken up film and eventually persuaded Kodak to re-introduce Kodachrome with PE at the helm but against his wishes. Old Kodak employees are often re-employed out of kindness but in PE's case at 105 years old the re-employment was clearly out of cruelty :D

Accompanying the "Ancient Photrioers" there is load of coffins consisting of most of today's current "protagonists" They are arranged in two sets called the "believers" and "non believers" or the "70s and 250s" as they came to be known .

The Town Crier reads the Ilford Proclamation and there are various sighs of both contentment and dissidence but a general reconciliation takes places as befits the end of 40 years of strife. He then says: "Will all those in the coffins now please indicate their acceptance of the Ilford Proclamation by knocking.

A hush envelopes the crowd. All eyes turn to the coffins, especially two coffins - one from Southern California.and the other from the South Midlands of England .........

pentaxuser
 

Billy Axeman

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I wish you good luck with your definite answer from Harman tech then

My apologies, I was too short in my answer. If you read Ilford's documentation about Perceptol and then compare it to the capacity of Microdol-X you as you show it, you will see that there are no similarities. Also in general, looking at a developer A can't give you specific info about a developer B. Until now we can't come to any conclusions about the capacity of Perceptol when used one-shot, hence an attempt to get some more info from Ilford.
 
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