Making Money in Photography

[Sirius Glass]

I found that I could make more money designing remote sensing optical systems than working as a photographer. The path not only paid better, but I spend less time working and I did not have to work as hard.

 

[Berkeley Mike]

This thread is about a future of analogue or digital photographers. Many avenues for income have simply disappeared. There will always be photographers at the top but, just as with sports, there is more to things than the champion.

 

[jtk]

This thread is about a future of analogue or digital photographers. Many avenues for income have simply disappeared. There will always be photographers at the top but, just as with sports, there is more to things than the champion.

If the question really does have to do with "future" it's strange to reduce that to film still Vs digital still.

https://arts.uchicago.edu/logan-center/logan-center-exhibitions/archive/agnès-varda-photographs-get-moving-potatoes-and-shells

https://wslamp70.s3.amazonaws.com/arts/s3fs-public/uploads/small_slideshow/1 Varda Logan 2015.jpg

 

[Berkeley Mike]

The question was about the potentials of film camera supplies given the lack of new camera production and the largess of used film cameras. This definitely not about film vs. digital, though it can wander there easily.

 

[Berkeley Mike]

This thread is about a future of analogue or digital photographers. Many avenues for income have simply disappeared. There will always be photographers at the top but, just as with sports, there is more to things than the champion.

Sorry everyone, I need to pull a Trump here. I should have left out the words "or digital". I did not even notice this until jtk pointed this out.

 

[jtk]

Sorry everyone, I need to pull a Trump here. I should have left out the words "or digital". I did not even notice this until jtk pointed this out.

Your original question ( Making Money in Photography) was entirely appropriate. The film/digital aspect is obvious, especially to anyone who has visited a lot of galleries or has actually made money with commercial photography.

It's touching that some kids are naive enough to accept the idea that film is still an important medium for "making money" ...but it seems inappropriate to teach the abandoned APUG notions to them, especially when they're financially struggling. But perhaps that's like teaching them chess or Shakespeare.

https://www.amazon.com/Born-into-Br...942349&sr=8-1&keywords=born+into+brothels+dvd

 

[jtk]

In ancient times one of the three best custom photolabs in the Bay Area (Color 2000) was my client (Colenta processing machines). They had superb craftsmen. I asked how they hire such great people. The owners go to Hong Kong determined to hire someone who has no training but does a great job sweeping streets. When they find someone admirable they offer to bring them to San Francisco, pay a small wage, offer housing, give them a broom. When that sweeper does good work long enough they congratulate him and offer the mop of the existing mopper IF the existing mopper can teach him perfect mopping and if he can get good enough maintaining processing machines. And so on. People like that can ultimately become fine Ektacolor printers (you can teach analog stuff to just about anybody).

 

[Bob Carnie]

In ancient times one of the three best custom photolabs in the Bay Area (Color 2000) was my client (Colenta processing machines). They had superb craftsmen. I asked how they hire such great people. The owners go to Hong Kong determined to hire someone who has no training but does a great job sweeping streets. When they find someone admirable they offer to bring them to San Francisco, pay a small wage, offer housing, give them a broom. When that sweeper does good work long enough they congratulate him and offer the mop of the existing mopper IF the existing mopper can teach him perfect mopping and if he can get good enough maintaining processing machines. And so on. People like that can ultimately become fine Ektacolor printers (you can teach analog stuff to just about anybody).

Whoa wait a minute... this story is a bit fantasy JTK .. I worked at the best photolabs in Canada for over 20 years, nobody was allowed to print unless they had a solid photographic background and could prove they could understand and see colour and knew how to operate an enlarger. Most came from the photo schools...

Now maybe that is the way the Bay labs did it, but I travelled to quite a few labs to visit in the States Icon in LA, Ferrari Colour in Sacramento, Duggal in New York , DMax in Chicago , and they pretty much looked and felt like the Canadian Labs I worked at. Maybe the free love in San Fran caused this apprenticeship program you describe.

I hated working on Colenta process machines btw they sucked

 

[jtk]

Whoa wait a minute... this story is a bit fantasy JTK .. I worked at the best photolabs in Canada for over 20 years, nobody was allowed to print unless they had a solid photographic background and could prove they could understand and see colour and knew how to operate an enlarger. Most came from the photo schools...

Now maybe that is the way the Bay labs did it, but I travelled to quite a few labs to visit in the States Icon in LA, Ferrari Colour in Sacramento, Duggal in New York , DMax in Chicago , and they pretty much looked and felt like the Canadian Labs I worked at. Maybe the free love in San Fran caused this apprenticeship program you describe.

I hated working on Colenta process machines btw they sucked

Colenta had terrible (German) electrical/electronic systems but required virtually no "working on" once up and running (which could take weeks) because they had so few moving parts. I'm not talking about old roller drum Colentas: nobody seriously used those if they could afford a proper roller transport machine (such as Hope, Kreonite, or Colenta)..

Why were you traveling in the US?

I'm amazed that any professional photolab would hire anybody from a "photo school."

What are Vancouver's best professional photolabs?

Color 2000 "looked and felt" like a hospital, immaculate. All Chinese. Quick learners.

San Francisco didn't suffer Canada's continuing poutine epidentic. Eh?

 

[Bob Carnie]

JTK sorry I meant I hated Kreonite the socks were nasty.... I would visit Labs as part of my job to trade information... I spent a week working the front counter at Ferrarri colour in Sacromento to get a feel for California customer action, in some labs I would just observe and share info. At Icon I considered a move in the early 2000's to run Black and White lab after the existing lab moved out , I decided against it and decided to stay an continue on in Toronto.
Poutine is a Quebec epedemic which I do love but need to lay down for three days after I indulge.
The newer Colenta's were good , I owned one that was made specifically for Cibachrome, not many made worldwide and it was awesome , too bad I had to toss it when Ciba became impossible to get.

 

[jtk]

The choices were Kreonite socks, Hope's bizarre complexity and rust, and Colenta's Germany-New Jersey management. Colenta had about 1/3 the moving parts Vs the others and was easy to clean. Moonlighting I designed and built Ciba transparency exhibits for Hyatt Hotels..shipped a dozen to Regency hotels. That project bought me freedom for solo commercial photography and graphic design AFTER I turned down offer to set up and run photo studio and photo lab for Bechtel in Saudi Arabia. Was my smartest professional decision.

 

[Colin Corneau]

Someone finding, and cornering, a unique niche in photography markets can use film quite easily. Because shooting and working with film is easy compared to getting the business aspect going...and that's the sad truth no matter what medium you use.
Plenty of avenues for photography that don't need instant turnover - fine art, landscape, portraiture, weddings, fashion. All are done more quickly and easily with digital, but there are those who are strong enough to craft a unique look all to themselves.

 

[Berkeley Mike]

It's touching that some kids are naive enough to accept the idea that film is still an important medium for "making money"

Some kids?

 

[Berkeley Mike]

there are those who are strong enough to craft a unique look all to themselves.

I have an MFA on the staff who tells students something similar; there is a lot of opportunity to make money at the top, then gives and example or two. (Note; she has nothing but film skill, and that limited to "art", and no studio skills in a vocational program.) No one denies that it is possible. However, statistically that is a pretty small and narrowly defined group. It is a disservice to encourage students to that sort of success.

You all may recall Brooks shutting down its doors. Previous to that they suffered a class-action lawsuit from parents who complained that their kids were told that "the sky is the limit" for earning after graduation. While true, statistically that is a pretty rare event. The court found that misleading and Brooks was out a couple million.

I spoke to a variety of Brooks recruitment/counselor types within 3 months of their Closure. I asked them about film. Response was that nealy all of ther darkrooms we closed. They were thinking of opening one up. What for, I asked." We will focus on gallery work". Recent dadta from PDN suggests that such a disposition can get you $30,000 a year but generally less. Also, many depend upon grants.

 

[jtk]

" Recent dadta from PDN suggests that such a disposition can get you $30,000 a year but generally less. Also, many depend upon grants."

I don't understand that point. Is PDN suggesting that $30K is "money" ? Since when, for that matter, was Brooks relevant to "gallery work" ?

 

[jtk]

Someone finding, and cornering, a unique niche in photography markets can use film quite easily. Because shooting and working with film is easy compared to getting the business aspect going...and that's the sad truth no matter what medium you use.
Plenty of avenues for photography that don't need instant turnover - fine art, landscape, portraiture, weddings, fashion. All are done more quickly and easily with digital, but there are those who are strong enough to craft a unique look all to themselves.

Obviously "there are those" (I was one professionally) but didn't the OT ask about advice to students regarding career choice? IMO the best answer has to do with video and video processing.

 

[Berkeley Mike]

" Recent dadta from PDN suggests that such a disposition can get you $30,000 a year but generally less. Also, many depend upon grants."

I don't understand that point. Is PDN suggesting that $30K is "money" ? Since when, for that matter, was Brooks relevant to "gallery work" ?

It gives us a reference point for earnings. $30K is an average amount common to many analysis. I apologize that I cannot find my great chart that shows this. I am attaching something a little meager and another graph from PDN. Gallery stuff as a View attachment 204354 career shows most in the lower earnings levels. As to gallery I think that the Gallery approach was a way for Brooks to recover a market of film students in the "resurgence", and put to use facilities they already had and a belief that it can turn into a career. Brooks was desperate for enrollment.

 

[faberryman]

Obviously "there are those" (I was one professionally) but didn't the OT ask about advice to students regarding career choice? IMO the best answer has to do with video and video processing.

Video needs to be a part of the kit, not the whole kit.

 

[Berkeley Mike]

We are looking for occupation for photographers jobs as opposed to freelance. One job that is attractive is someone in a corp of large business that can create content, still and video, get it online and manage it. It might contain social media. By reaching out to our Media dept we share an HDSLR video class and have created a special certificate addressing that potential job. That said, most of my success with students has been with entry level freelance stuff; events, small product, copy services, babies. We did get one of our students into a Lab.

This is a developing aspect of our program. Your input is key.

 

[jtk]

We are looking for occupation for photographers jobs as opposed to freelance. One job that is attractive is someone in a corp of large business that can create content, still and video, get it online and manage it. It might contain social media. By reaching out to our Media dept we share an HDSLR video class and have created a special certificate addressing that potential job. That said, most of my success with students has been with entry level freelance stuff; events, small product, copy services, babies. We did get one of our students into a Lab.

This is a developing aspect of our program. Your input is key.

IMO salaried photo "jobs" (other than wedding photo assistants) are mostly part of responsibility of receptionists. Social media photos are free from vendors, clients, website visitors. Wedding photo assistant seems a promising first step..however the most juicy wedding customers want wedding videos at least as much as they want prints. Can't be "well rounded" without video skills.

If I was education tsar I'd require each student to produce some sort of coherent online (not print) presentation that demonstrated skills and credited the student.

 

[eddie]

In ancient times one of the three best custom photolabs in the Bay Area (Color 2000) was my client (Colenta processing machines). They had superb craftsmen. I asked how they hire such great people. The owners go to Hong Kong determined to hire someone who has no training but does a great job sweeping streets. When they find someone admirable they offer to bring them to San Francisco, pay a small wage, offer housing, give them a broom. When that sweeper does good work long enough they congratulate him and offer the mop of the existing mopper IF the existing mopper can teach him perfect mopping and if he can get good enough maintaining processing machines. And so on. People like that can ultimately become fine Ektacolor printers (you can teach analog stuff to just about anybody).

I'm calling bullshit on this claim. And also on your digital smugness. It's easier to do digital than analogue (backed up by the number of Craigslist "pros" out there), though both require skills to excel. We get that you've gone digital. It's not necessary to assert some sort of digital supremacy to justify your choice. It comes off as petty.

 

[jtk]

I'm calling bullshit on this claim. And also on your digital smugness. It's easier to do digital than analogue (backed up by the number of Craigslist "pros" out there), though both require skills to excel. We get that you've gone digital. It's not necessary to assert some sort of digital supremacy to justify your choice. It comes off as petty.

fwiw I shoot more film than digital, but I always choose to scan and inkjet print because it seems like a better approach from point of view of print control, not to mention sharpness. If I did a lot of formal portraits I'd shoot sheet film and have that scanned (because I can't scan 4X5) and print via inkjet.

 

[Berkeley Mike]

IMO salaried photo "jobs" (other than wedding photo assistants) are mostly part of responsibility of receptionists. Social media photos are free from vendors, clients, website visitors. Wedding photo assistant seems a promising first step..however the most juicy wedding customers want wedding videos at least as much as they want prints. Can't be "well rounded" without video skills.

If I was education tsar I'd require each student to produce some sort of coherent online (not print) presentation that demonstrated skills and credited the student.

Today (3:51 PM) I got an appeal to our department for a part-time position taking landscape photos. I will file away you suggestion for an online presentation. It is great.

 

[Berkeley Mike]

I'm calling bullshit on this claim. And also on your digital smugness. It's easier to do digital than analogue (backed up by the number of Craigslist "pros" out there), though both require skills to excel. We get that you've gone digital. It's not necessary to assert some sort of digital supremacy to justify your choice. It comes off as petty.

I'm not sure I agree with your judgement on the digital disposition. jtk has always presented a pretty well-rounded view of things, analogue and digital.

 

[jamesaz]

We are looking for occupation for photographers jobs as opposed to freelance. One job that is attractive is someone in a corp of large business that can create content, still and video, get it online and manage it. It might contain social media. By reaching out to our Media dept we share an HDSLR video class and have created a special certificate addressing that potential job. That said, most of my success with students has been with entry level freelance stuff; events, small product, copy services, babies. We did get one of our students into a Lab.

This is a developing aspect of our program. Your input is key.

In a commercial or industrial company that still have staff photographers I'd assume the job would need to, in addition to still and video production, also be qualified in digital asset management, cataloging all the work related cell phone pictures taken by folks playing out of their pay grade as well as assignment work. A few years on, 3-D printing abilities will probably be a required skill. Future possibilities are exciting. The commercial oriented will find ways to succeed commercially. Some of the others will make art.