Making Money in Photography

[Berkeley Mike]

and the elephant in the room is when the very large prints that cost thousands of dollars fade or shift &c does the artist make a replacement, even when it is a limited edition print
were only a few are made? certainly ink jet or pigment prints are the way of the future and paper stocks can be very nice, but the images are treated like posters in a department store.
this has been a problem with cprint makers as well...
and this has been a problem originally faced by photographers and written about in the 2nd quarter of the 2oth centure by walter benjamin ( http://web.mit.edu/allanmc/www/benjamin.pdf ).
as far as many are concerned,
when millions of images can be produced none of them have any value. this has been the case when the negative was celluloid, and there was still human intervention in the printing stage
it is evident now more than ever when reproduction is even more mechanical.

Value when attached to scarcity seems easier to understand. A rare print auctioned for $1,000,000 sends imagers into a swoon. An image produced 1,000,000 times and sold for a dollar each is distained as fodder for the hoi pollloi. The acquisition of imaging has become democratized. Does that threaten the value of the $1,000,000 purchase?

At the same time, the democratization of image capture seems to be understood in the same way.

 

[removed account4]

Value when attached to scarcity seems easier to understand. A rare print auctioned for $1,000,000 sends imagers into a swoon. An image produced 1,000,000 times and sold for a dollar each is distained as fodder for the hoi pollloi. The acquisition of imaging has become democratized. Does that threaten the value of the $1,000,000 purchase?

At the same time, the democratization of image capture seems to be understood in the same way.

im not exactly talking about the democratization of image making ( digital camera / cell phone &c ) but i was responding to another
person's endless rants about how ink prints being so much better ..
as i said when an image shifts or fades does the digital image maker just print out another one ? or is it / will it be considered part of the lifespan of the image ?
plenty of color images in galleries and museums over the years have suffered these problems " non archival ness "
i mean they paid thousands, sometimes tens of thousands of dollars for a flawed product.
its like when you submit a habs job ot the park service, THEY TEST IT for chemicals and will reject the negatives
and prints if they aren't washed well ... galleries and museums can't do that with ink.
i doubt current ink prints made with current k series or better pigment sets on high end papers would outlast one of irving
penn's or william eggelson's or harry calahan's or my uncle's dye transfer prints, or one of vaughn's carbons,
or bob carnie's gum overs, or ....
pro labs less than 10 years ago were exchanging 7 month old shifted 20x24 portraits for new ones
sold by portrait photographers lab as having more than a massive lifespan... at least the pro lab reprinted the images,
would the "fine art photographer" issue a replacement ink print just sold for 3 million ( not 2 thousand )
if it was a singular image or 1:4 and all 4 were made and sold.
and would the replacement be considered a different "run" seeing it is probably a different ink different paper &c
( edition makers are notorious for changing 1 thing and claiming it is a different print of a popular $$ edition )

i think it is hilarious for anyone to think that a process that is not even 2 decades old ( pigment inks on xyz papers ) has an infinate lifespan .. some say wilhelm reports rc prints will last 900 years!

Somehow the business end of things gets short shrift. Even my instructors who have long commercial experience tend to focus on what one does with the camera on-set. Photographers would rather have a Rep to hustle work and a bookkeeper to keep track of the numbers to free them to press the button.

i can't remember but i think even the smfa in boston teaches a art business class that people are required to take
( or they used to )
its been a long time since i talked to people i know who went there .. i think they were doing their best to
squash the "artists are terrible business people" sort of thing. the rep is good ( and accountant ) but on a shoestring budget
you are rep-less ( could use the 30-40% yourself ) and you are buying turbowtaxx and taking taxes for dummies out of the
public library to save the $300.

 

[jtk]

Value when attached to scarcity seems easier to understand. A rare print auctioned for $1,000,000 sends imagers into a swoon. An image produced 1,000,000 times and sold for a dollar each is distained as fodder for the hoi pollloi. The acquisition of imaging has become democratized. Does that threaten the value of the $1,000,000 purchase?

At the same time, the democratization of image capture seems to be understood in the same way.

Some folks understand that giving something (e.g. photograph) away leads to prosperity more than does coveting something.

One of the most obvious examples has always been giving examples of one's work to people who appreciate it and who can influence assignments (e.g. Art Directors and Curators). That is one of the realities that distinguishes the works of professionals from that of "artiste's" and wannabe professionals.

Professionals are more likely to be artists than are artiste's and wannabe artiste's. Professionals aren't wannabes.

 

[faberryman]

Lots of generalizations there.

 

[jtk]

Lots of generalizations there.

Faberry, I often appreciate your photos and even some of the things you say. What precisely is your point? Do you think professionals don't give samples to art directors? I certainly have, and it's always paid off.

We needn't get into "professionals-vs-hobbiests and "artistes" because that's a matter of who-makes-money Vs who simply spends money (the OT).

 

[removed account4]

chicago ?

 

[Sirius Glass]

My heart goes out to those of us who still imagine that tiny "analog" prints will last longer than digital versions, and that digital phenomena such as the current Lawrence of Arabia, or ...for that matter... most of Edward Weston's current images, will not continue to be there, in all of their digitally delivered glory, for our great grandchildren

keep drinking the koolaid !
==
how's eddie doing, still having trouble ??

I agree John. I want that stuff to smoke. Don't waste the bandwidth arguing with him.

 

[Berkeley Mike]

How long do you think it will take for pigment-jet images to become the norm?

 

[faberryman]

How long do you think it will take for pigment-jet images to become the norm?

Are they not already the norm? What kind of color prints do your students make, and will they make for their future clients?

 

[faberryman]

How long do you think it will take for pigment-jet images to become the norm?

Are they not already the norm? What kind of color prints do your students currently make, and will they make for their future clients? At my local community college, we have access to machine which makes C-prints from digital files, but the quality of the inkjet prints trumps them easily.

 

[Berkeley Mike]

Are they not already the norm? What kind of color prints do your students currently make, and will they make for their future clients? At my local community college, we have access to machine which makes C-prints from digital files, but the quality of the inkjet prints trumps them easily.

Are these pigment prints fading/shifting?

 

[removed account4]

How long do you think it will take for pigment-jet images to become the norm?

no clue but hard to understand how people are duped into thinking they a gift from the heavens ...
silver and forms of chemical photography mightnot be perfect, they might not last forever but at least we know of some that have
lasted more than a decade ... a lot of what is being sold today as everlasting might not even last as long as the newsprint it is printed on.
when i mentioned to a friend who is a digital enthusiast computer programmer, software designer cultural icon that i was submitting a state HABS job
as digital files ( TIFF ) and archival pigment prints he couldn't believe that was what they wanted as an archival media

its ez, sure, it looks good, sure, it is here, now, sure its archival, not so sure

 

[jtk]

The fun thing about the "archival" neurosis is that it serves the neurotics so well.

They imagine their fears will add some sort of value to their currently unnoticed work...conveniently, their fears are used to distract attention from Topics such as this OT:
Making Money in Photography

Note that hardly any significant gallery refrains from hanging inkjet work in 2018.

Art has nothing to do with "archival" anxieties...those anxieties serve sad purposes.

 

[removed account4]

I agree John. I want that stuff to smoke. Don't waste the bandwidth arguing with him.

might be cactus related ...
i keep forgetting to stop feeding the trolls .. thanks for reminding me !

 

[Berkeley Mike]

Are they not already the norm? What kind of color prints do your students currently make, and will they make for their future clients? At my local community college, we have access to machine which makes C-prints from digital files, but the quality of the inkjet prints trumps them easily.

Printing is a specialization restricted to another campus; politic and territoriality. Delivery is all digital. We are trying to gain printing without threatening the other campus.

I know, I know. Don't ask....

 

[jtk]

Printing is a specialization restricted to another campus; politic and territoriality. Delivery is all digital. We are trying to gain printing without threatening the other campus.

I know, I know. Don't ask....

Mike, you seem to be saying that to you and your programs, "photography" means "printing".

Do you have instructors who are more focused on images than on methods of print-making?

Do some of them regularly exhibit work in galleries? Do you make use of Oakland Museum curators?

Are Minor White, Dorothea Lange, and Ansel Adams (famous Oakland-related folks) treated as print-makers or as photographers?

Do your schools address print making (eg lithography or seriography) apart from photography or are they restricted to Photrio limits?

Too many questions, I know...but maybe you can address them in your own way.

 

[Berkeley Mike]

Not at all. Instead many participants here express interest in printing and whether we print. I was very clear that we do not print and the reason is described above: it is restricted to another campus within our district. If I have students who want to learn to digitally print I send them to the other campus.

 

[removed account4]

Not at all. Instead many participants here express interest in printing and whether we print. I was very clear that we do not print and the reason is described above: it is restricted to another campus within our district. If I have students who want to learn to digitally print I send them to the other campus.

so if it is just about exposure and processing, how do they know the relationship between what they exposed
and what it is going to look like afterwards ... LOL if any of my photo instructors just taught me how to expose and process
id be completely bummed-out that all i had was negatives or something to look at on a computer screen !

 

[MattKing]

I'm trying to figure out a way to say this respectfully...
Anyone who graduates out of a photographic program who has not received training in how to either print to a professional standard, or how to work with skilled (and relatively expensive) printing technicians to obtain professional standard printed output, has received a clearly sub-standard education.
Printing is by far the best way to test the technical quality of someone's photography. If all you are trained to do is prepare photographs for web or screen viewing, then you shouldn't expect to make much money.

 

[faberryman]

I'm trying to figure out a way to say this respectfully...
Anyone who graduates out of a photographic program who has not received training in how to either print to a professional standard, or how to work with skilled (and relatively expensive) printing technicians to obtain professional standard printed output, has received a clearly sub-standard education.
Printing is by far the best way to test the technical quality of someone's photography. If all you are trained to do is prepare photographs for web or screen viewing, then you shouldn't expect to make much money.

I don't disagree, but what percentage of clients want prints? Obviously, it depends on area of photography, but for something like advertising, are clients actually looking for prints or is it mostly digital delivery? In other words, could you establish a practice where prints were a secondary consideration.

 

[Berkeley Mike]

First of all, this venue and it's text-oriented method is inadequate for this kind of discussion. It wants beer on the patio on a warm summer evening.

Second-like, this is a 2-year program that has failed to fulfill its vocational mission for the last 15 years. Getting certain faculty and administrators to move into the contemporary demands of our craft has been an uphill struggle. At the risk of raising hackles, the dependance upon the BW darkroom was a function of leadership who knew nothing about either commercial work or digital expression embracing half of the faculty (with the same limitations) who do not understand, let alone teach, digital.

Leadership from the former Chair and sole Full time tenured position, continued to normalize the darkroom as a predominant vocational skill. Now, in spite of the fact that nearly all imaging for clients is delivered digitally, there is resistance to moving into the digital age.

The regressive group sees BW as vocationally viable. Why wouldn't they? Has the Chair not supported them over the years? Administrators and lay-folk, who know nothing of commercial work, retain romantic notions of what photography is about. They STILL see it the Hollywood presentation of the traditional darkroom as how photography is executed. I have been struggling with this for the last 4 years. Now on my 3rd Dean and 4th President I have to bring people up to speed, with illustrations about our progress, our direction and future goals, constantly. It is hard to get things to stick and build upon them.

FWIW, of my 3 commercial shooter/instructors, NONE of them produce prints. Advertising doesn't want prints. I did a favor for a friend; a wedding reception 2 months ago; 200 image files and 2 sets of Costco 4x6s. I haven't done that in at least 3 years, and 2 years before that.

And You ask about printing...good question but nearly esoteric in the context of the work I am trying to do. That said, I need to get back to preparing a presentation for our new VP of Instruction.

 

[MattKing]

For clarity, I wasn't referring to darkroom printing.
I was referring to printing in general, which in today's commercial world means digital printing in most cases.
And while I understand that product delivery may frequently be done digitally, IMHO if the product isn't to the standard that professionally printed work demands, then most likely it will be sub-standard.

 

[jtk]

First of all, this venue and it's text-oriented method is inadequate for this kind of discussion. It wants beer on the patio on a warm summer evening.

Second-like, this is a 2-year program that has failed to fulfill its vocational mission for the last 15 years. Getting certain faculty and administrators to move into the contemporary demands of our craft has been an uphill struggle. At the risk of raising hackles, the dependance upon the BW darkroom was a function of leadership who knew nothing about either commercial work or digital expression embracing half of the faculty (with the same limitations) who do not understand, let alone teach, digital.

Leadership from the former Chair and sole Full time tenured position, continued to normalize the darkroom as a predominant vocational skill. Now, in spite of the fact that nearly all imaging for clients is delivered digitally, there is resistance to moving into the digital age.

The regressive group sees BW as vocationally viable. Why wouldn't they? Has the Chair not supported them over the years? Administrators and lay-folk, who know nothing of commercial work, retain romantic notions of what photography is about. They STILL see it the Hollywood presentation of the traditional darkroom as how photography is executed. I have been struggling with this for the last 4 years. Now on my 3rd Dean and 4th President I have to bring people up to speed, with illustrations about our progress, our direction and future goals, constantly. It is hard to get things to stick and build upon them.

FWIW, of my 3 commercial shooter/instructors, NONE of them produce prints. Advertising doesn't want prints. I did a favor for a friend; a wedding reception 2 months ago; 200 image files and 2 sets of Costco 4x6s. I haven't done that in at least 3 years, and 2 years before that.

And You ask about printing...good question but nearly esoteric in the context of the work I am trying to do. That said, I need to get back to preparing a presentation for our new VP of Instruction.

Mike, thanks for so exhaustively addressing my perhaps-too-complicated-for-Photrio questions.

How about soliciting occasional classroom presentations from visiting photolab professionals? Maybe that would count on too-much optimism from them...but maybe it'd be interesting to ask .. ?

 

[btaylor]

"Professionals are more likely to be artists than are artiste's and wannabe artiste's."

Oh my. No. A professional's job is to Perform a Specialized Service for Money. Like an accountant, a surgeon, or an attorney, or a Professional Photographer (or is it actually a trade, and not a profession?). They produce what the client pays for.

I don't know what an "artiste" is, unless you are denigrating photographic artists that are not Professional Photographers (hired hands).

As a cinema professor of mine pointed out, culinary school graduates have a 100% placement rate in their field after graduation. A cinema degree, well, maybe one of you will end up working in the field after graduation. So if you don't like those odds, drop now.

I think the photography racket is no different. Professional (money making) success is going to be limited to the very few who have the perseverance, patience and luck to make a go of it no matter what the educational process is.

 

[Berkeley Mike]

For clarity, I wasn't referring to darkroom printing.
I was referring to printing in general, which in today's commercial world means digital printing in most cases.
And while I understand that product delivery may frequently be done digitally, IMHO if the product isn't to the standard that professionally printed work demands, then most likely it will be sub-standard.

If we had a problem then I would worry. The acuity of Lightroom usage demands color balance and exposure within a certain dynamic range. Prints and subsequent publication has worked just fine.