Kodak Price Increase and Hiring Spree 2023: What Do You Want Kodak to Focus on Moving Forward?

[Sirius Glass]

My local mom and pop lab has no issues with returning reloadable cassettes. Perhaps you could find a better place to do business?

I tried many including the Kodak processing facilities. The film processors could not be bothered to work with me.

 

[MattKing]

Does Kodak Alaris distribute directly to the retailers or is there another layer of distribution companies between the two?

Kodak Alaris sell to local distributors.
Those distributors are the ones that tend to specialize in supplying particular market segments - drugstores, grocery stores, big box stores, tourism businesses and yes, some who specialize in the photography markets.
The distributors often have different minimum order and other terms, and they compete against each other, so a retailer can decide to buy some film from one source, and other film from another source, based on whatever terms matter to them most - price, minimum order quantities, availability, speed and cost of shipping, etc.
That is in contrast to Ilford products, which are available only from one exclusive distributor, at a single price, and with one set of terms regarding minimum order quantities, availability, speed and cost of shipping, etc.

 

[MattKing]

Kodak could have had a website that sold their film and sold it nowhere else and would've stayed in business. Almost all their film is bought online. And they gave up trying to promote the stuff decades ago. But the fact is, Kodak - Eastman - Alaris whatever is not mainly a film company. Look at what you find on the Alaris webpage:

View attachment 328273

That is the other, non-film based part of the business that the UK pension plan bought from the Eastman Kodak bankruptcy trustee.
It is run mostly separately, and is apparently growing.
Their Film business is at this website: https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/photographers/film

 

[1kgcoffee]

My request is simple, I want to make RA-4 printing more accessible. I don't think it would be a huge moneymaker, but having a community of folks like Ribsy, who make beautiful analog RA-4 prints would feed back into film sales and help support them.

What do they need? Howabout cut sheets of Endura, not exorbitantly priced? And some system to easily process those cut sheets. Maybe chemicals tweaked for room temp processing.

Most people have condensor enlargers. So fit an rgb bulb in there with a kodak app that can manipulate color balance. I've done this and it works.

 

[MattKing]

My request is simple, I want to make RA-4 printing more accessible. I don't think it would be a huge moneymaker, but having a community of folks like Ribsy, who make beautiful analog RA-4 prints would feed back into film sales and help support them.

What do they need? Howabout cut sheets of Endura, not exorbitantly priced? And some system to easily process those cut sheets. Maybe chemicals tweaked for room temp processing.

That isn't part of Eastman Kodak's business any more - it went with the bankruptcy settlement.
You would have to ask that of Sino Promise Holdings.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

That isn't part of Eastman Kodak's business any more - it went with the bankruptcy settlement.
You would have to ask that of Sino Promise Holdings.

At some point if you have to let people wish for things in a wishlist thread.

 

[Sirius Glass]

At some point if you have to let people wish for things in a wishlist thread.

In that case, I want to be 30 lbs [~14 Kg] lighter and 50 years younger with all the physical and mental ramifications as long as we have a wishlist for the impossible.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

In that case, I want to be 30 lbs [~14 Kg] lighter and 50 years younger will all the physical and mental ramifications as long as we have a wishlist for the impossible.

That's the spirit!

 

[MattKing]

At some point if you have to let people wish for things in a wishlist thread.

True, but I think this was supposed to be what people wanted from the Kodaks that initiate the film price increase and are hiring 300 people.
Sino Promise isn't part of that.

 

[mshchem]

I have checked Sino Promise website looks like it hasn't been updated since July 2020. Not sure what this means.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Kodak Alaris sell to local distributors.
Those distributors are the ones that tend to specialize in supplying particular market segments - drugstores, grocery stores, big box stores, tourism businesses and yes, some who specialize in the photography markets.
The distributors often have different minimum order and other terms, and they compete against each other, so a retailer can decide to buy some film from one source, and other film from another source, based on whatever terms matter to them most - price, minimum order quantities, availability, speed and cost of shipping, etc.
That is in contrast to Ilford products, which are available only from one exclusive distributor, at a single price, and with one set of terms regarding minimum order quantities, availability, speed and cost of shipping, etc.

So Kodak film gets marked up by Eastman Kodak, Kodak Alaris, and then the third-tier distributors before the final markup by the retailers. Ilford has one less markup which could account for some of their lower prices.

The other issue is if Eastman Kodak keeps its markups relatively higher, it forces the other tiers to lower their markup to remain competitive. I realize that all manufacturers have that issue, that they can't get too greedy and leave no room for others' markups, but Alaris is stuck with Kodak film. They have nowhere else to go. Other distributors have other film products to sell to make money.

 

[MattKing]

Ilford sells into a much, much smaller market than Eastman Kodak. While Ilford makes and sells more black and white film than Kodak does, the volume of colour film that Kodak makes and sells dwarfs Ilford volumes. Ilford is small enough and their market is focused enough that they can manage their core marketing and distribution using people in house, although that department has to generate profit. Even then, they need a bunch of specialized distributors - one in each target market.
Eastman Kodak has a much larger and far more diverse market. It contracts out its core marketing and distribution to Kodak Alaris, who also have to generate profit. Due to the much larger and diverse market that Kodak films are sold into, there is another level of specialized distributor, who add value, but also make a profit.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Ilford sells into a much, much smaller market than Eastman Kodak. While Ilford makes and sells more black and white film than Kodak does, the volume of colour film that Kodak makes and sells dwarfs Ilford volumes. Ilford is small enough and their market is focused enough that they can manage their core marketing and distribution using people in house, although that department has to generate profit. Even then, they need a bunch of specialized distributors - one in each target market.
Eastman Kodak has a much larger and far more diverse market. It contracts out its core marketing and distribution to Kodak Alaris, who also have to generate profit. Due to the much larger and diverse market that Kodak films are sold into, there is another level of specialized distributor, who add value, but also make a profit.

Well despite the generally higher prices, Kodak is hiring 300 more employees because their market is growing. So they must be doing something right.

 

[MattKing]

Well despite the generally higher prices, Kodak is hiring 300 more employees because their market is growing. So they must be doing something right.

They are, and they need someone to do what the other participants in the distribution chain do.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

They are, and they need someone to do what the other participants in the distribution chain do.

What do you mean?

 

[Don_ih]

Their Film business is at this website: https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/photographers/film

You get to both sites from the same page. They are the same company. Or are you going to say they aren't? Different divisions are divisions of something.

 

[Steve@f8]

Drop the bloody prices, that’s what!

 

[DREW WILEY]

1kgcoffee - I haven't even seen a condenser enlarger in decades. I remember my bother's old beehive 4x5 Beseler one he used 60 years ago. But I have seen dozens and dozens or colorhead ones. I've been offered at least 30 of those for free over the years, all pro quality. Accepted just one, since I already had four working enlargers, one with a cold light, all the others with colorheads.

Fuji has all kinds of excellent RA4 papers. The supply chain was rocky during the pandemic, but is rapidly improving. Most are available in roll version only, a minor inconvenience; but there is at least one CA product line sold in cut sheets up to 20X24 inch size. Hard to say if Kodak label papers will ever come out of their China situation nose dive or not.

There are several brands of standardized RA4 chem options already available; and a controlled temp water bath is easy to rig up. Yeah, there is room temp chem version too; but I found that too be way less reliable than the real deal.

 

[MattKing]

You get to both sites from the same page. They are the same company. Or are you going to say they aren't? Different divisions are divisions of something.

I misunderstood your earlier post Don. I thought you had mistaken that site as being the only one that Kodak Alaris has.
I've actually never seen the header page that links to the two separate business webpages - the joys of using search engines on the internet and relying on shared links.
Kodak Alaris actually has been working hard to separate the two divisions, because of how different their business models are, and also because due to the fact that the UK Pension Authorities prefer cash, they were at least investigating selling the film distribution division at the same time they sold the chemical and paper business to Sino Promise.
But the price would be high - certainly more cash than Eastman Kodak would likely be able to raise.

 

[MattKing]

What do you mean?

It is Eastman Kodak who is hiring, not Kodak Alaris.
And in order to sell what those extra employees are going to produce, Eastman Kodak needs Kodak Alaris and the others in the distribution chain to do what they do.

 

[abruzzi]

me, personally, I want Kodak to focus on staying solvent.

 

[1kgcoffee]

That isn't part of Eastman Kodak's business any more - it went with the bankruptcy settlement.
You would have to ask that of Sino Promise Holdings.

Just the chemistry, or paper and confectioning as well? Seems like it would be in everyone interest (Alaris/Sino/Eastman) to work together for their mutual benefit. Heck, even for Fuji to cooperate. The pie is growing there's no reason they can't work like a cartel.

 

[BCM]

I suspect that the only reason any company increases prices is because they think they can. It increases their profits. More money for executives and shareholders, might even trickle down to the workers. If it gets to that point, they will start talking about new price increases that are needed in the future.

As someone who has run many companies, I would disagree with this assessment. Prices rise over time. It's not always about profits. People want raises, lease costs rise, raw material costs go up. It's not 1950 anymore so prices are higher. When adjusted for inflation, they are not that much higher.

 

[1kgcoffee]

1kgcoffee - I haven't even seen a condenser enlarger in decades. I remember my bother's old beehive 4x5 Beseler one he used 60 years ago. But I have seen dozens and dozens or colorhead ones. I've been offered at least 30 of those for free over the years, all pro quality. Accepted just one, since I already had four working enlargers, one with a cold light, all the others with colorheads.

Fuji has all kinds of excellent RA4 papers. The supply chain was rocky during the pandemic, but is rapidly improving. Most are available in roll version only, a minor inconvenience; but there is at least one CA product line sold in cut sheets up to 20X24 inch size. Hard to say if Kodak label papers will ever come out of their China situation nose dive or not.

There are several brands of standardized RA4 chem options already available; and a controlled temp water bath is easy to rig up. Yeah, there is room temp chem version too; but I found that too be way less reliable than the real deal.

Condensers are mostly what I have seen up here in Alberta. Would love to get a dichroic head for a reasonable price.

And agree with you on the Fuji paper, it is what I mostly use 6&8" cut to various sizes to fit my RCP 20. Their pre-cut paper is OK, but the rolls seem to be better.

If Kodak has the will I'm sure they could whip up some sort of deal either with Sino or Fuji to promote RA-4. Half of the joy of CN film is the analog printing. Its not that much harder than B&W & scanning to pixels is just not the same.

 

[MattKing]

Just the chemistry, or paper and confectioning as well? Seems like it would be in everyone interest (Alaris/Sino/Eastman) to work together for their mutual benefit. Heck, even for Fuji to cooperate. The pie is growing there's no reason they can't work like a cartel.

Chemistry, paper, lab support infrastructure - it is all in Sino Promise hands now.
They cooperate with respect to certain things - for instance I think Eastman Kodak makes control strips for Sino Promise - and my sense is that they communicate well, but they aren't doing anything with respect to shared products or distribution or anything of that sort.
Eastman Kodak's film division is, outside of their motion picture business, only equipped to manufacture for large volume commercial customers - primarily Kodak Alaris.
And Sino Promise continues to be one of the largest distributors buying film through Kodak Alaris - they have a direct relationship with retailers, which Kodak Alaris and Eastman Kodak lack.