Kodak Price Increase and Hiring Spree 2023: What Do You Want Kodak to Focus on Moving Forward?

[George Mann]

T-Max 100 is the reason that you won't see Panatomic-X again, because it does all the things that 99.9% of the users wanted from Panatomic-X, it does them all or better, and it does other things as well.

I disagree. I love Pan X but hate T-Max. But Pan X didn't scan well.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Realistically, I'd like this Alaris situation to go end. It seems like they might have some bean-counter reasons why products that are in production currently are simply only available in ways that make the more expensive or difficult to get. I see no reason why color film can't be sold in bulk, I see no reason why RA4 paper can't be cut to popular darkroom sizes.

Secondarily, I want them to figure out this Sino Promise disaster. If you are the company that created the line of chemistry called Flexicolor, would you say it's a good thing that labs all over the world have had to abandon your products because they can't get freaking Kodak C41 chemistry???

I was all Kodak for chems at least in C41 and B&W, but due to simple availability I switched to Fuji and honestly, I prefer it. Easier to mix and work with. Fuji helped me work out Bleach regeneration and now I'm saving bundles of cash on the most expensive chem in the C41 line up.

Lastly, and related to the bulk roll thing, I think Kodak could get serious about packaging waste. A national program to reclaim 35mm cassettes and 120 spools, plus plastic 35mm packaging would be a great thing. Plus most photographers do not need a factory spooled roll of 36 exposure Kodak Gold. There are ways to make bulk go more mainstream with artists and enthusiasts. The people who need factory scaled film will buy it.

I imagine the cost to reclaim a cassette is just too expensive. How much can a new one cost to fabricate? A few cents? Is there anything stopping processing centers like yours from giving them to local recycling plants? That seems more practical.

Regarding bulk loading, you're assuming most people have darkrooms or other ways to do that. It's bad enough in New Jersey that I have to carry out my food from the supermarkets by hand because plastic bags can no longer be used and I always forget to take the purchased bags from the car to the market when shopping, So now, I've collected loads of these and my car is a mess.

 

[Don_ih]

Regarding bulk loading, you're assuming most people have darkrooms or other ways to do that.

Actually, if they put the film on solid motion-picture spools and had a few leading layers of paper, you could load a bulk roll in daylight. There's always a solution.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

T-Max 100 is the reason that you won't see Panatomic-X again, because it does all the things that 99.9% of the users wanted from Panatomic-X, it does them all or better, and it does other things as well.

I disagree. I love Pan X but hate T-Max. But Pan X didn't scan well.

Wherein George confirms that he's among the 0.1% of users that Kodak cannot economically cater to.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Actually, if they put the film on solid motion-picture spools and had a few leading layers of paper, you could load a bulk roll in daylight. There's always a solution.

The solution resolves how much plastic is being returned? At what cost? What kind photographers are going bother bulk loading? I've never done it in fifty years.

 

[mshchem]

Look what happened when Alaris spun off the paper and chemistry, kaboom no more paper and chemistry. I have no idea how distribution, sales, etc works. I am able to get Kodak film at a reasonable price, I don't see how putting EK in charge of everything would improve this.
I suspect that Matt knows the situation as well as anyone here.

I would be happy to be able to buy cut sheets of Kodak color negative paper, but I wouldn't be the first in-line to buy stuff made in Sino Promise factories. How long has it been since Eastman Kodak made color paper?? 10+ years, Caresteam was spun off when? before the chapter 11 of EK? How long has Harrow been gone?

I say don't rock the boat

 

[mshchem]

Actually, if they put the film on solid motion-picture spools and had a few leading layers of paper, you could load a bulk roll in daylight. There's always a solution.

Leica cassette daylight reloads!!!

 

[johnsb2]

+1 on bringing back E100VS, that was my all-time favorite Kodak slide film. Or perhaps re-launch E200, to give a higher speed option in the market for the first time since Provia 400X was dropped.

2) Add another color slide film option -- I'm glad E100 was brought back a few years ago, but I'd like to see another offering from the company. I imagine it'd be easier to revitalize an older film than to develop one from scratch, though it's conceivably possible that EPA rules have changed sufficiently in the last 5-10 years that any "old" film might need to be tweaked to meet current regulations (this is reportedly what killed off Velvia 100). Personally, I'd love to see Kodak bring back E100VS. With Fuji Velvia 100 being completely gone in the U.S and Velvia 50 no longer available in sheet sizes, E100VS seems like a no-brainer, as it would fill a void for shooters looking for a punchy, saturated color positive film. Opinions obviously vary, but this was one of my favorite films in the early 2000s.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I imagine the cost to reclaim a cassette is just too expensive. How much can a new one cost to fabricate? A few cents? Is there anything stopping processing centers like yours from giving them to local recycling plants? That seems more practical.

Regarding bulk loading, you're assuming most people have darkrooms or other ways to do that. It's bad enough in New Jersey that I have to carry out my food from the supermarkets by hand because plastic bags can no longer be used and I always forget to take the purchased bags from the car to the market when shopping, So now, I've collected loads of these and my car is a mess.

When I shot 100 foot rolls of Ektachrome, I had trouble getting my high quality cassettes back. The cost of cassettes made the cost saving not worth the effort.

 

[George Mann]

Wherein George confirms that he's among the 0.1% of users that Kodak cannot economically cater to.

My comment had nothing to do with "economics"!

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

When I shot 100 foot rolls of Ektachrome, I had trouble getting my high quality cassettes back. The cost of cassettes made the cost saving not worth the effort.

Penny wise and pound foolish. I've been there.

 

[George Mann]

What kind photographers are going bother bulk loading? I've never done it in fifty years.

It will save you money.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

It will save you money.

My luck I'd wind it on backwards.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Even if Pan X were restored, it wouldn't be a substitute for the far greater versatility of TMax 100. Yeah, kiwi birds are cute, but they're nearly extinct; and birds that can actually fly are far more successful for a reason. Versatility counts in the evolution of products too.
And there is still a niche product out there which mimics the Pan X look (Ilford Pan F); so what incentive would Kodak have to revive something just "me too". Anything R&D which takes on the overhead of actual production, but turns out to be a financial bellyflop, is just going to additionally drive up the cost of others films to recoup the loss. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[George Mann]

When I shot 100 foot rolls of Ektachrome, I had trouble getting my high quality cassettes back. The cost of cassettes made the cost saving not worth the effort.

My local mom and pop lab has no issues with returning reloadable cassettes. Perhaps you could find a better place to do business?

 

[MattKing]

Look what happened when Alaris spun off the paper and chemistry, kaboom no more paper and chemistry.

Are you saying the sale caused a worldwide pandemic and total disruption of shipping and distribution, along with a cessation of large amounts of manufacturing throughout China and much of the world?
A lot of KA employees ended up working for Sino Promise instead. The 1500 are the ones left afterwards, and they include those who are working in the "Alaris" division - the one that has nothing to do with photography.

 

[MattKing]

Eh I don't really get it. KA isn't doing this for charity, they're making money. If they absorbed part of KA and re-built other systems there is no reason why they too can't make money on it. That's another thing that should change. The dealer network sucks for consumers, sucks for vendors. It works really well for the small number of shops large enough to want to take on that roll but look at the 120 Gold fiasco. A shop like mine should be able to call up KA or EK, whomever, and say I want to order XYZ products to sell, and they get shipped. Right now we have to go to Roberts, Freestyle, etc. The prices are barely cheaper than what you see listed to consumers...which is usually about what B&H is charging. You have a couple film labs just selling at wholesale costs to consumers because it keeps them shooting film and sending it in to those labs.

I don't really buy that this 'can't be done'. Adox basically owns their distributor but I'm able to get product from them. Ilford is easy to deal with on this. I mean I believe you that it probably won't happen, but I still think it should.

To absorb KA, Eastman Kodak would have to buy KA, and that would be expensive.
When KA took over the business they took over, most of the remaining Eastman Kodak and Eastman Kodak subsidiaries employees went with it - because a large portion of Eastman Kodak and Eastman Kodak subsidiary employees were in the marketing and distribution end of the business - particularly after the Kodak, labs were wound down.
Outside of Harman/Ilford in the UK (and probably Fuji in Japan) here isn't a single major film manufacturer that does their own distribution to retailers. All of them contract with others to directly deal with retailers. The only difference is that some of the manufacturers have exclusive contracts with different distributors around the world, and maintain an in-house department to deal with those distributors, while others - Kodak - have offloaded that part of the business, and their are no exclusive distribution agreements for the wholesale to retailer part.
The current Kodak arrangement mirrors how things were with Kodak before the bankruptcy, except the marketing department isn't in house.

 

[MattKing]

I can't imagine why Alaris would want to vote to turn over distribution to Eastman Kodak and 1500 Alaris employees lose their jobs which currently are locked in due to the bankruptcy provision between the two companies.

The bankruptcy provisions are long past. The trustee sold the business. As part of the terms of the sale, the parties entered into and worked under a mutually beneficial contract for 8 - 9 years, the contract was put in peril by the problems that occurred due to Covid, and the contract was replaced with a new, re-negotiated contract that the parties now operate under. None of the contractual provisions were imposed by any Court - they were just part of the deal when The UK Pension authorities bought the business asset from the trustee. The sale was approved by the Court, not the contract.

 

[mshchem]

Are you saying the sale caused a worldwide pandemic and total disruption of shipping and distribution, along with a cessation of large amounts of manufacturing throughout China and much of the world?
A lot of KA employees ended up working for Sino Promise instead. The 1500 are the ones left afterwards, and they include those who are working in the "Alaris" division - the one that has nothing to do with photography.

Ease up a little. I have no idea if the Wuxi plant is running, or mothballed. Kodak spent billions in China in the 90's, last I heard the Xray film lines there were shuttered decades ago. I don't think as far as paper and chemistry goes that anything has run in years.

 

[MattKing]

I don't think as far as paper and chemistry goes that anything has run in years.

On the ease up front, you may have missed the "wink" emoticon.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "years", but as far as chemistry is concerned, they were producing for Kodak Alaris up until the sale of the business, and there are at least some signs of newly manufactured product appearing.
I never understood the China manufactured product to necessarily being made on former Kodak in China lines - but it may have been.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

To absorb KA, Eastman Kodak would have to buy KA, and that would be expensive.
When KA took over the business they took over, most of the remaining Eastman Kodak and Eastman Kodak subsidiaries employees went with it - because a large portion of Eastman Kodak and Eastman Kodak subsidiary employees were in the marketing and distribution end of the business - particularly after the Kodak, labs were wound down.
Outside of Harman/Ilford in the UK (and probably Fuji in Japan) here isn't a single major film manufacturer that does their own distribution to retailers. All of them contract with others to directly deal with retailers. The only difference is that some of the manufacturers have exclusive contracts with different distributors around the world, and maintain an in-house department to deal with those distributors, while others - Kodak - have offloaded that part of the business, and their are no exclusive distribution agreements for the wholesale to retailer part.
The current Kodak arrangement mirrors how things were with Kodak before the bankruptcy, except the marketing department isn't in house.

Does Kodak Alaris distribute directly to the retailers or is there another layer of distribution companies between the two?

 

[Agulliver]

On cassettes, recycling and bulk loading. I've only sent out a reloadable cassette for lab processing on three occasions, to three different labs, and they all handed (or posted) me the cassette back because I requested they do so. I guess some labs wouldn't want the hassle but it seems, in England at least, to be OK to ask for a cassette to be returned.

As for recycling, I guess the metal 135 cassettes at least do not contribute to plastic pollution, but it would be preferable that they didn't enter the waste system for landfill. Not sure what can be done there. How damaging to the environment are they actually, and what is the most responsible way to dispose of them? And given that industry is probably dumping gazillions of tons of waste metal, is it significant?

As for bulk loading. I do it for B&W and would consider for colour if the price was right. I am sure a lot of us bulk load. Equally I am sure that 90% of film users don't, never have and never intend to. The majority of those buying film aren't shooting a hundred (or a thousand) rolls a year to make it worthwhile bulk loading. Easing prices on bulk film just won't be a priority for E-K or K-A.

The existing E-K/K-A alliance seems strange but it functions. Might another solution eventually function better and more efficiently? Possibly, but setting it up would be prohibitively expensive and would still have to take into account all the legal obligations placed on K-A regarding the pension funds etc. It would seem illogical to mess with that part of the infrastructure. And if they did decide to rebuild their distribution network and it went wrong.....bye bye Kodak film.

 

[Don_ih]

Kodak could have had a website that sold their film and sold it nowhere else and would've stayed in business. Almost all their film is bought online. And they gave up trying to promote the stuff decades ago. But the fact is, Kodak - Eastman - Alaris whatever is not mainly a film company. Look at what you find on the Alaris webpage:

 

[Sal Santamaura]

My comment had nothing to do with "economics"!

Your comment, and every other comment in this thread (as well as the innumerable other threads like it), has everything to do with economics. Kodak is a for-profit manufacturer. If such an entity cannot provide the market what it wants in an economically profitable manner, the market will not get what it fantasizes about.

 

[Scott J.]

Something else to add to my Kodak wish list: Bring back the E-6 and Tmax 400 control strips.

With E-6, my experience has been that Fuji and Kodak films are differentially sensitive to first developer time in rotary processors, with Fuji films generally requiring longer times. I've been able to verify my Fuji FD and CD times (as well as reversal bath concentration) using their CR-56 control strips, but for Kodak films I'm pretty much shooting from the hip. It's worked okay for the most part, but it'd be nice to have a more rigorous method available.

Ilford still makes FP4+ control strips but the deep-dive Kodak did on process monitoring for B&W development (lots of good info here) makes me curious to try their strips. I appreciate how Kodak went through the additional testing to, among other things, correlate development times with their Tmax 400 control strips to other films and developers in their catalog using contrast index. In the winter months, I don't generally have a lot of "real" film to develop, so that kind of testing can be an enjoyable distraction.