Kodak planning to replace remjet on vision 3 films

[BHuij]

Interesting - I used to pre-wash all my roll films before adding developer, and some 35mm (as well as most 120) films that I remember using would wash out all sorts of colorful antihalation dyes. Now I think about it thought, that does seem to be primarily a B&W thing, so unsurprising if color negative film layers are arranged differently.

 

[koraks]

some 35mm (as well as most 120) films that I remember using would wash out all sorts of colorful antihalation dyes.

Well, dyes wash out. The question is whether they're (also/only) antihalation dyes. With color film, I don't think so. In fact, if you take Vision3 with remjet and wash it, it'll release magenta dyes that for sure are not part of any antihalation package since that's managed by remjet. The magenta color that washes out is the exact same as the color I see when washing out Kodak C41 films as well as Fuji-made C41 film (old Superia from the Dutch factory when that still made it).

 

[Cholentpot]

B&W cine stocks don't have remjet so I think the stuff was just a holdover from times of yore or 'its the way we've always done it' mentality.

 

[MattKing]

B&W cine stocks don't have remjet so I think the stuff was just a holdover from times of yore or 'its the way we've always done it' mentality.

That probably has more to do with the development infrastructure - black and white motion picture film labs were in existence long before colour motion picture film came into being, and they would not have been set up for anything like remjet.
In modern times it is sometimes difficult to appreciate how much of what has come to be was actually motivated by the commercial film developing world, rather than the desires and needs of individual still photographers.

 

[Cholentpot]

That probably has more to do with the development infrastructure - black and white motion picture film labs were in existence long before colour motion picture film came into being, and they would not have been set up for anything like remjet.
In modern times it is sometimes difficult to appreciate how much of what has come to be was actually motivated by the commercial film developing world, rather than the desires and needs of individual still photographers.

Black and white film rolled through the cameras just fine and didn't have issues with halation though.

 

[ChrisGalway]

I understood that one role for the remjet backing was to "lubricate" (for want of a more accurate word) the passage of cine film through the film gate, especially for 65mm full iMax which moves at about 1.5 m/sec (I think).

 

[koraks]

Remjet fulfills several functions during exposure:
* anti-halation
* lubrication
* scratch protection
* static buildup & discharge protection
So replacement of the remjet would mean these functions have to be allocated to other elements of the exposure system. These can be part of the film, or of the taking camera.

 

[Cholentpot]

Remjet fulfills several functions during exposure:
* anti-halation
* lubrication
* scratch protection
* static buildup & discharge protection
So replacement of the remjet would mean these functions have to be allocated to other elements of the exposure system. These can be part of the film, or of the taking camera.

This is all built into something like Eastman Double X?

 

[koraks]

This is all built into something like Eastman Double X?

Partly, and in some respects less effectively than in e.g. Vision3; so I'd say yes/no.

 

[mshchem]

Is remjet an environmental concern? I wouldn't think so? California has some pretty demanding standards. Could be something that's coming down the road.

Maybe simply a cost reduction effort. Supplier/availability??? There's got to be a reason.

 

[Harry Callahan]

Well, dyes wash out. The question is whether they're (also/only) antihalation dyes. With color film, I don't think so. In fact, if you take Vision3 with remjet and wash it, it'll release magenta dyes that for sure are not part of any antihalation package since that's managed by remjet. The magenta color that washes out is the exact same as the color I see when washing out Kodak C41 films as well as Fuji-made C41 film (old Superia from the Dutch factory when that still made it).

As far as i know color films do have several filter layers which are needed for exposure, but for printing/projection...

Black and white film rolled through the cameras just fine and didn't have issues with halation though.

In the beginning cine film did not have any AHL and this was a big problem.

It is possible that remjet is more effective in protecting the roll of film from light when loading/unloading the camera than an AHL in the emulsion. As color film is more expensive than B&W it would help to loose less footage with color film.

Is remjet an environmental concern? I wouldn't think so? California has some pretty demanding standards. Could be something that's coming down the road.

Maybe simply a cost reduction effort. Supplier/availability??? There's got to be a reason.

If i`m not mistaken remjet is made from ashes for the most.
Remjet must have some advantages in the (movie) camera, otherwise they wouldn`t have done it. But it has disadvantages during development/final result and i guess that`s why they`re trying to change this. The labs could quit the cleaning step, the developing machine could be a little smaller, would require a little less energy, the development may be a little faster - and the final result could be less problematic.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Is remjet an environmental concern

The removal bath potentially is.

I understood that one role for the remjet backing was to "lubricate" (for want of a more accurate word) the passage of cine film through the film gate, especially for 65mm full iMax which moves at about 1.5 m/sec (I think).

From what Shanebrook has said, the lubrication comes from a wax layer, not the remjet.

The remjet does deliver anti-static as well as anti-halation, and those potentially have to become discreet layers.

There's got to be a reason

A further (and less obvious) reason may have to do with historic anti-trust problems - Kodak got a lot of heat over C-41 jumping to CD-4, so there will have been good reasons for wanting to make ECN-2 maximally compatible with extant processes and systems. And cinema neg is more price sensitive per foot than still neg, so there's lots of cost/ performance trade-offs that people either aren't or don't want to be aware of.

 

[koraks]

Filter dyes are generally not water soluble -- at least in color films.

So they remain in the film after processing?

 

[Disconnekt]

Reflx Lab posted some photos of the new Vision3 500T on their IG, sayin that "This is the Vision3 500T film (emulsion number starting from 7), only available for film crews. It is the new, remjet free motion picture film that can be processed in C-41. Because the C-41 chemicals are very potent, the film can be shot at iso640 or iso800 instead of the designated iso500. And because it adopts the new AHU coating, it has no halation despite no remjet. We can call it the new 800T without halation."

 

[Disconnekt]

They said it was shot at ISO 640, in c-41, noritsu scanning

 

[Lachlan Young]

Because the C-41 chemicals are very potent, the film can be shot at iso640 or iso800 instead of the designated iso500.

Which boils down to it still being a CD-3 based ECN-2 emulsion.

 

[koraks]

They said it was shot at ISO 640, in c-41

So a 500-speed tungsten-balanced ECN2 film underexposed in daylight conditions and cross-processed in C41 developer. These people are in it for the top notch results, that's for sure! "Hey, we'll fix it in post."

 

[brbo]

These people are in it for the...

You say it like people are in for a big surprise. Cinestill has been selling tungsten ECN-2 ISO500 film that people regularly shoot @ISO800at in daylight and process in C-41 for 10 years. I'm pretty sure that the fact that this film now has AHU will not make it worse in such conditions.

Anyway, there is probably slim chance that Reflx will be respooling the new 5219 and it's quite possible that Alaris will block the sale of the 5129 with AHU to Cinestill. I can easily imagine that Cinestill will be stuck with what they are getting from Kodak now (no remjet and no AHU) and that AHU Vision3 films will be very very rarely used in still cameras (probably limited to odd rolls that get "lost" in movie production).

 

[Daniël Oosterhuis]

You say it like people are in for a big surprise. Cinestill has been selling tungsten ECN-2 ISO500 film that people regularly shoot @ISO800at in daylight and process in C-41 for 10 years. I'm pretty sure that the fact that this film now has AHU will not make it worse in such conditions.

Anyway, there is probably slim chance that Reflx will be respooling the new 5219 and it's quite possible that Alaris will block the sale of the 5129 with AHU to Cinestill. I can easily imagine that Cinestill will be stuck with what they are getting from Kodak now (no remjet and no AHU) and that AHU Vision3 films will be very very rarely used in still cameras (probably limited to odd rolls that get "lost" in movie production).

CineStill put a teaser on Instagram recently, with the picture of a plus symbol, which mentions something "years in the making" is being announced for release. AHU has been eight years in the making, so it very well could be AHU V3 film coming up.

 

[Cholentpot]

So a 500-speed tungsten-balanced ECN2 film underexposed in daylight conditions and cross-processed in C41 developer. These people are in it for the top notch results, that's for sure! "Hey, we'll fix it in post."

I'd hate to be the one that tells you this...

Most of us shooting film these days are not into it for 'top notch results' we're here for the vibes and the cameras that go 'clickity chunk'

If I wanted top notch I wouldn't be shooting on a camera older than my grandmother with film that was manufactured four administrations ago being exposed at whatever rating I feel this morning and then developed in chemistry that may or may not work. But I'm having fun and making something so results are second fiddle sometimes.

 

[koraks]

Yeah, that's OK. There's several hobbies interacting on a forum like this one, including process enthusiasm, camera collecting and sometimes a tiny bit of photography to keep them glued together.

 

[brbo]

CineStill put a teaser on Instagram recently, with the picture of a plus symbol, which mentions something "years in the making" is being announced for release. AHU has been eight years in the making, so it very well could be AHU V3 film coming up.

That is very interesting. If true, it would open another dimension in the Alaris-EK cine vs. still film debate. Namely, that Cinestill could in fact be the major beneficiary in the cine film respooling crackdown.

Given the very tight bonds between EK and Cinestill personnel it wouldn't surprise me. It would surprise me if Alaris wouldn't do anything about it, though. Because if they can't, I can see EK getting back their customer still film business through Cinestill. Basically for free.

 

[Cholentpot]

Yeah, that's OK. There's several hobbies interacting on a forum like this one, including process enthusiasm, camera collecting and sometimes a tiny bit of photography to keep them glued together.

People use their cameras to take pictures? That's like buying sneakers and wearing them! The entire market value just goes away! They're for looking, not touching.

 

[koraks]

Hehe, just joking; I keep mine on a shelf and only take them out to fondle them sometimes!

 

[BHuij]

That is very interesting. If true, it would open another dimension in the Alaris-EK cine vs. still film debate. Namely, that Cinestill could in fact be the major beneficiary in the cine film respooling crackdown.

Given the very tight bonds between EK and Cinestill personnel it wouldn't surprise me. It would surprise me if Alaris wouldn't do anything about it, though. Because if they can't, I can see EK getting back their customer still film business through Cinestill. Basically for free.

I've never shot Cinestill film because I'm not really interested in halation, and I could get regular old Vision3 250D from the FPP and deal with the remjet myself for much cheaper.

But if Cinestill ends up being the only place available to get the new 250D with anti-halation (assuming I'll be able to get it at all)... then I'd buy from them. They probably market it as 400D, but knowing what it is, nothing stopping me from just shooting it at 250 and developing myself in ECN-2 minus the remjet bath.