Kodak grey card usage

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Bill Burk

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Ah Wikipedia where only the truth and accuracy can be found, a bit like the massive development chart :wink:

For example people keep writing Ev when it should be Ev. Why? becasue if you use Ev instead of Ev it implies from standard mathematical notation that v is a base number of E (function derived value of E) and it isn't in the formula I used and nor does my meta data explain itself as such. Take care with what you write or some pedant will try and suggest it's wrong.

I'm using the formula which minolta sent to me when I asked them a question about how their meters worked (except they use K =14) and not something I found in the dead sea scrolls.

I'm not going to complicate anything by introducing Bv. It's unecessary in the scope of this topic since the minolta supplied formula I'm using is not using it.

Just saying the logarithm base 2 of 16 is not EV 4 by itself, (except when K=3.3333) it's a minor correction.
 
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RobC

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Oh yeah? Go back and do your conversions to standard SI units and see if you can come up with the right answer. And I would suggest you read the contents of links you use as references very carefully before you use them. And make sure they make sense with what you're saying.
 
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Bill Burk

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When I used your numbers, I came up with a calculation that should be simple and doesn't work. I feel compelled to point it out.

The formula relating reflected light in cd/m2 to film speed used in the EV formula - EV = BV + SV

Part of your work evaluates to EV 7 = 4 + 5

4 what you said was EV for 16 cd/m2
5 is the corresponding number for 100 ISO film

I have to double check and say, no 2 + 5 = 7 - there must be something wrong. I dug deeper - just enough to see that it has to do with K

Then I see things going smoothly AFTER you include K in the math. So K is pretty important to the whole meter formula that Minolta gave you.
 
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RobC

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I guess thats why Minolta say it in the formula they use. So what you are saying is you got it wrong when trying to validate it.
 
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The three different exposure meter standards that I checked have it as Ev as well as a number of books including The Theory of the Photographic Process 4th edition, Photographic Materials and Processes, The Manual of Photography, and The Encyclopedia of Photography. The peer reviewed papers also have it as either Ev or with an italicized lower case v. This is not to say it doesn't appear as Ev; however, mostly in the body of the text.
 
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RobC

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now go back and tell us if they are only using Ev when they are doing calcs in cd/ft2
 
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I am not sure I get everything in Connolly and in the text by Stephen but I try to distill this.

Once upon a time, the exposure equation could be expressed as Hg = 10 / ISO.
Hg is the esposure needed to obtain a target grey, and is the exposure suggested by the light meter.

Progress in lens coating led to higher light transmission by the lens. That prompted a recalculation of K which ultimately led to a new formulation of the exposure equation as Hg = 8 / ISO.

This new formulation only differs by 1/3 of a stop from the older. In order not to create havoc and destruction in the photographic industry and community, the old equation was kept as far as negative film is concerned. With negatives, 1/3 of a stop is insignificant, it's all recovered during the printing process, and in any case one can err in the way of overexposure with ease.

With slide film, 1/3 of EV is a significant exposure difference, and it matters. Besides, there's no printing and no way to adjust results. So it was decided, in order to correctly describe the behaviour of the slide film with the new better lenses, to adopt the new equation.

This new value of lens reflectance is possibly the cause that made the K constant to go from 10.64 to 12.50.

Now we consider what happens with the old (still good for negatives) equation and the new (good for slides) equation.

Old equation, Hg = 10 / ISO:

100 ISO -> LogHg -1,0;
200 ISO -> LogHg -1,3;
400 ISO -> LogHg -1,6;

New equation, Hg = 8 / ISO:

100 ISO -> LogHg -1,097; which we round at -1,1;
200 ISO -> LogHg -1,4;
400 ISO -> LogHg -1,7;

The density curve for the new equation is shifted 0.1 less exposure (1/3 EV less exposure) for the same density in order to take into account the higher transmission of modern lenses.

At each ISO speed for each equation, the Hg density is obviously the same, only exposure changes.

So what is this density, which I think we can define as Dg?

We have to look at the characteristic curve of the film.

Let's take the Provia 100F film curve.

We observe, by sight, that Hg = -1,1 corresponds to around Dg = circa 1.15.

I underline this is the density for "target grey" at all ISO speeds when following the light meter indication, with the new K = 12.5 constant after the revision. Which is: I expect any slide film, rated any ISO, to have Dg = circa 1.15

That corresponds to an opacity of 6.07 which, in turn, corresponds to a tranmission of 0.1647 or around 16,5%, which corresponds very nicely to a reflected lightmeter calibrated with K = 12.5 (Sekonic).

A reflected lightmeter (Minolta-Kenko, or Pentax) calibrated for K = 14 which correspons to a grey of 18% would suggest a slightly inferior exposure, and create a slightly higher density, corrisponding, I do believe, to a transmission of 18% on the slide.

So we have historically three different "target greys":

Old ASA formulation, with K = 10.64, corresponding to the exposure equation Hg = 10 / ISO: a shade of grey that would result in 16.5 % if we use old lenses and if we take Hg from old light meters with K = 10.64; This equation is still used for determination of ISO speed as far as negative film is concerned, but light meters don't use K = 10.64 any more!

New ASA/ISO formulation, with K = 12.5 corresponding to the exposure equation Hg = 8 / ISO: a shade of grey corresponding to 16.5% reflectivity. That's what you get if you shoot slides with a Kenko lightmeter. That's also what you get if you shoot negatives with a Kenko, or a K = 12.5, light meter, because light meters have all adopted for the new higher lens transmission.

A different K = 14, adopted by Minolta (Kenko) and Pentax. That should give you a shade of grey of 18% which exactly matches the middle grey Kodak card and the middle of human vision between black and white.

That would also mean that, in fact, also for negative film, when following light meter indication, one obtains an Hg which corresponds to the new 8 / ISO equation, that is, less exposure!

Incident and reflected light metering can differ of 1/3 EV because the incident light metering might still be performed according to the old light transmission coefficient of lenses.

Comments welcome!
 
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I am not sure I get everything in Connolly and in the text by Stephen but I try to distill this.

Once upon a time, the exposure equation could be expressed as Hg = 10 / ISO.
Hg is the esposure needed to obtain a target grey, and is the exposure suggested by the light meter.

Progress in lens coating led to higher light transmission by the lens. That prompted a recalculation of K which ultimately led to a new formulation of the exposure equation as Hg = 8 / ISO.

This new formulation only differs by 1/3 of a stop from the older. In order not to create havoc and destruction in the photographic industry and community, the old equation was kept as far as negative film is concerned. With negatives, 1/3 of a stop is insignificant, it's all recovered during the printing process, and in any case one can err in the way of overexposure with ease.

With slide film, 1/3 of EV is a significant exposure difference, and it matters. Besides, there's no printing and no way to adjust results. So it was decided, in order to correctly describe the behaviour of the slide film with the new better lenses, to adopt the new equation.

This new value of lens reflectance is possibly the cause that made the K constant to go from 10.64 to 12.50.

Now we consider what happens with the old (still good for negatives) equation and the new (good for slides) equation.

Old equation, Hg = 10 / ISO:

100 ISO -> LogHg -1,0;
200 ISO -> LogHg -1,3;
400 ISO -> LogHg -1,6;

New equation, Hg = 8 / ISO:

100 ISO -> LogHg -1,097; which we round at -1,1;
200 ISO -> LogHg -1,4;
400 ISO -> LogHg -1,7;

The density curve for the new equation is shifted 0.1 exposure (1/3 EV) for the same density.

At each ISO speed for each equation, the Hg density is obviously the same, only exposure changes.

So what is this density, which I think we can define as Dg?

We have to look at the characteristic curve of the film.

Let's take the Provia 100F film curve.

We observe, by sight, that Hg = 1,1 corresponds to around Dg = 1.15.

I underline this is the density for "target grey" at all ISO speeds when following the light meter indication, with the new K = 12.5 constant after the revision.

That corresponds to an opacity of 6.07 which, in turn, corresponds to a tranmission of 0.1647 or around 16,5%, which corresponds very nicely to a lightmeter calibrated with K = 12.5 (Sekonic).

A lightmeter (Minolta-Kenko, or Pentax) calibrated for K = 14 would suggest a slightly inferior exposure, and create a slightly higher density, corrisponding, I do believe, to a transmission of 18% on the slide.

So we have historically three different "target grey":

Old ASA formulation, with K = 10.64, corresponding to the exposure equation Hg = 10 / ISO: a shade of grey darker than 16.5 %; This equation is still used for determination of ISO speed as far as negative film is concerned, but light meters don't use K = 10.64 any more.

New ASA/ISO formulation, with K = 12.5 corresponding to the exposure equation Hg = 8 / ISO: a shade of grey corresponding to 16.5% reflectivity. That's what you get if you shoot slides with a Kenko lightmeter. That's also what you get if you shoot negatives with a Kenko, or a K = 12.5, light meter, because light meters have all adopted for the new higher lens transmission.

A different K = 14, adopted by Minolta (Kenko) and Pentax. That should give you a shade of grey of 18% which exactly matches the middle grey Kodak card and the middle of human vision between black and white.

Comments welcome!

Not quite. Don't get the speed equations mixed up with exposure. 10/Hm is the current reversal speed equation. 8/Hm is the old, and 8/ISO will give you Hg for a given film speed. If you have questions on specific equations from Connelly, I can walk you through them.

Your evaluation of K could use another pass.
 

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I guess thats why Minolta say it in the formula they use. So what you are saying is you got it wrong when trying to validate it.

If you are being sincere, I'll continue... You will need to add to your Minolta formula, and accept they are using EV.

Now if you can point out a definition of EV that satisfies you, I can work from that.

This is based on the definitions of the different terms in EV that I found related to the APEX system.

I'm just saying without K, you can't say 16 cd/m2 is 4 on its own. It makes some assumption of K, which if you would like, puts a 1 in the denominator in where K would be used in the definition of luminance that is used in EV. Now the formula I found has B / KN where N is 0.3 and 3.3333 for K times 0.3 is effectively putting 1 in the denominator.
 
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RobC

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have you got the correct density on a slide yet?
 
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RobC

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If you are being sincere, I'll continue... You will need to add to your Minolta formula, and accept they are using EV.

Now if you can point out a definition of EV that satisfies you, I can work from that.

This is based on the definitions of the different terms in EV that I found related to the APEX system.

I'm just saying without K, you can't say 16 cd/m2 is 4 on its own. It makes some assumption of K, which if you would like, puts a 1 in the denominator in where K would be used in the definition of luminance that is used in EV. Now the formula I found has B / KN where N is 0.3 and 3.3333 for K times 0.3 is effectively putting 1 in the denominator.
And for cd/ft2 you can forget K becasue its = 1. You can't with cd/m2
 

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OK I begin asking questions, one by one, about Connelly and about some sensitometry in general. That might be boring, or interesting for those reading the thread, and certainly interesting for me.

I have a problem with Hg and HR in Connolly.
Your explanation seems clearer.
If I get you right, HR is the speed point determined as a quadratic mean of the two exposure point F and S.
Hg is where the light meter places the middle grey. This is determined "empirically" and is outside of all our equations, so far. We take it as an exogenous datum.
Given the derivation of HR which is the "speed point" for slide film, the speed equation for reversal is now S = 10 / HR.
But HR is not the exposure that gives middle grey.
Following the indication of the light meter, I expose for Hg and obtain a certain density Dg.
Hg / HR = 0.8. Or, more simply, Hg is 1/3 EV less exposure than HR.

If all of this is right, I just throw Connolly in the dustbin and proceed from this firm ground.

My fundamental questions are:
1) Which is the target grey that the light meter creates on my slide?
2) Which is the corresponding density of this grey, Dg?

The answer to question 2) might be:
first I find HR using speed equation;
second I derive Hg;
third I plot Dg on the film curve.

For a ISO 100 reversal film, S = 10 / HR so 100 = 10 / HR, so HR = 0.1 so LogH(0.1; 10) is -1.
Now I subtract 1/3 EV from this exposure in order to obtain Hg, which is -1,1.

I stop here and ask for confirmation of what's wrong in what written above.

[EDIT: when I said "your explanation seems clearer" I made a reference to Stephen's explanation in #205]
 
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RobC

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what happens if the develpment time is a tad out or another manufacturers developer is used or maybe the developer is a tad less active than it was. That is going to mean your target won't be hit. And then yuor lenses most likely only have 1/3 stop detents so you can't set exposure accurately even if your meter works in 1/10ths of a stop and most camera meters aren't that accurate anyway.

In short all this level of theoretical mathematics can not be matched in the field so its a waste of time unless you are designing a light meter. Your best option is always to do practical tests to iron out discrepancies in your meters accuracy . your technique and development and to visually judge if the neg colour is what you want it to be.
 
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what happens if the develpment time is a tad out or another manufacturers developer is used or maybe the developer is a tad less active than it was. That is going to mean your target won't be hit. And then yuor lenses most likely only have 1/3 stop detents so you can't set exposure accurately even if your meter works in 1/10ths of a stop and most camera meters aren't that accurate anyway.

In short all this level of theoretical mathematics can not be matched in the field so its a waste of time unless you are designing a light meter. Your best option is always to do practical tests to iron out discrepancies in your meters accuracy . your technique and development and to visually judge if the neg colour is what you want it to be.

It's about exposure and not density.
 

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I'm not doing demonstrations with slide film because I don't have any on hand right now. I bought the last of the Velvia 50 from my favorite camera store before it closed, and the scouts and I have already shot the last of what I got. There's another shop I can go to in the city but for now I'm still recovering from the shock.

I'll be demonstrating first with black and white TMAX 100. Though the precision of exposure isn't required for black and white negative processing, I'll be able to expose and read densities on the film with the precision needed to demonstrate our understanding.

I use K=1.16 when working in Imperial units as an equivalent of K=12.5 in SI units. (You can make K=1 in Imperial units by choosing K=10.78 in SI units).

It's close enough to 1 to explain how Ansel Adams could be successful using the exposure formula ignoring K. But it's not exactly 1 most of the time.

As for third-stops... I have a pair of ND filters now 0.1 and 0.2, so I can hit the third stops now... if the sun will just come out.

As for the processing variability... this is how you nail a shoddy photo lab. By doing a test and checking expected vs actual results. It's Stephen's profession to keep photo lab processes in control... so that's where he gets all this knowledge.

Why use a gray card in the first place? I have a variety of meters and cameras with meters built-in. Every once in a while a camera or meter will tell me to use an exposure that doesn't make sense. Yesterday for instance I saw the ASA dial on my OM-4 had shifted to 64 as I was changing exposures and it was the strange recommendation that tipped me off. (I was especially alert to it since I was doing tests to illustrate this thread). I like to occasionally confirm by "another" method as I am out taking pictures. A gray card (or my hand) make a good reflective target to double check.
 

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It's about exposure and not density.

Well my specific question is also regarding the corresponding density of a certain exposure. That, in the assumption that, when projected, there is one density that matches the original shade of grey that I want to "correctly" reproduce.

That will, in turn, explain the first question: what shade of grey is my reflected light spot meter calibrated to.

So I see the two things as correlated.

In response to RobC, I understand, but no. I like to know how things should work in theory first, and then iron out deviations. Much more effective.
Apertures and shutter speeds are very precise if we exclude the extreme values. And yes I have shutter speeds tested in laboratory.
Light meters are very precise, and if there is a deviation from an expected or desired behaviour, they must be calibrated to that behaviour.
I stick to standard developing procedures for my slides, and their tone values actually fall where they theoretically should. A minimum of tests is necessary here when one changes material. In order to chose a new material, one must fully understand a characteristic curve, and all its implications when using them for nocturne pictures for instance.
When everything works well, it's easy to bring the rest into good behaviour. If my shutter speed, aperture, and light meter are properly working, I can take some test developments and know how correct is the development. One cannot test all parameters all together.
My philosophy is to have proper functioning of every element of the workflow, and reach exactly the results that are expected.

Bracketing is for very difficult situations. (I understand professionals to bracket when they are on a commissioned work. I would do that myself. But that's an insurance policy. I want to know the result before seeing the picture. Frankly, that happens).

I'm orphan of Astia and whichever slide material I will use now will have less contrast range (dynamic range) than Astia. I expect to be able, just looking at the curve, to understand where I begin losing texture in the highlights. There will be tests of new material, but they must just confirm something which has been devised, foreseen, by looking at the chart.

If I weren't a poor old fart, I would have bought a densitometre long ago! ;-)

PS I use thirds or fourths of fifths of a stop! The aperture ring can be used at any position, not just where it "clicks"! Your light meter gives you an indication in tenths of EV which you can use, and must use if you want precise results with slides.

And I use one-shot rotative processing exactly for constance of results.
 
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Diapositivo

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I had no feedback to my text #238 so I obstinately go on with the reasoning:

If we now observe the charactheristic curve of Provia 100 ISO, the exposure of -1.1 corresponds to a density of around 1,15 by eyesight.
That corresponds to an opacity of 6.07 which, in turn, corresponds to a tranmission of 0.1647 or around 16,5%.

The density at middle grey at all ISO is - given the same exposure equation - always the same. For every level of light, for every film speed, middle grey must be the same middle grey so I expect the same density with small variations.

If we trust this source: http://dpanswers.com/content/tech_kfactor.php this 16.5% grey corresponds very closely to a lightmeter calibrated with K = 12.5 (15,7%, Sekonic should use this K).

So far, I am concluding that it all sticks very well, the circle is closed as I expected:

A light meter with K = 12.5 is calibrated to correctly render a 16% grey. When using the light meter, we obtain an exposure value, Hg, which is 1/3 of EV closer than the speed point of a slide film which is HR and, given ISO = 10 / HR, corresponds to an exposure of -1.0. So my lightmeter gives me an exposure of -1.1 which, in turn, gives me back my 16% middle grey on the projection screen.

Don't tell me there's something wrong because I would be very :cry: :smile:

And I even think that by using a light meter calibrated with K = 14, which would correspond to a 17.6% grey, I would actually get that grey on my slide.

Yes there are little variations due to small imperfections of the process, but the result will be "satisfactorily" where expected if all elements of the process are well executed.
 
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OK I begin asking questions, one by one, about Connelly and about some sensitometry in general. That might be boring, or interesting for those reading the thread, and certainly interesting for me.

I have a problem with Hg and HR in Connolly.
Your explanation seems clearer.
If I get you right, HR is the speed point determined as a quadratic mean of the two exposure point F and S.
Hg is where the light meter places the middle grey. This is determined "empirically" and is outside of all our equations, so far. We take it as an exogenous datum.
Given the derivation of HR which is the "speed point" for slide film, the speed equation for reversal is now S = 10 / HR.
But HR is not the exposure that gives middle grey.
Following the indication of the light meter, I expose for Hg and obtain a certain density Dg.
Hg / HR = 0.8. Or, more simply, Hg is 1/3 EV less exposure than HR.

If all of this is right, I just throw Connolly in the dustbin and proceed from this firm ground.

My fundamental questions are:
1) Which is the target grey that the light meter creates on my slide?
2) Which is the corresponding density of this grey, Dg?

The answer to question 2) might be:
first I find HR using speed equation;
second I derive Hg;
third I plot Dg on the film curve.

For a ISO 100 reversal film, S = 10 / HR so 100 = 10 / HR, so HR = 0.1 so LogH(0.1; 10) is -1.
Now I subtract 1/3 EV from this exposure in order to obtain Hg, which is -1,1.

I stop here and ask for confirmation of what's wrong in what written above.

P is the important constant in this. It's the same as K1 (not to be confused with K) from the exposure meter standard. This is where Hg will fall for a given film speed. 8/100 = 0.080 for 100 speed film. HR in Connelly and currently Hm in the current standard is determined. This as well as HF and HS can be known points of density. The speed equation will produce a film speed value that will want to put the exposure Hg 1/3 stop to the left of HR.

This paper only deals with reflected exposure meters, and there are two types, integrated and spot. For spot, the Hg will be from anything you point at. For an integrated meter for a statistically average scene and basically the calibration Luminance, it's 12%. This comes from the calibration Luminance value as compared to the calibration Illuminance value. I don't use incident meter and haven't spent nearly as much time on them. I've only read The Incident Light Method of Exposure Determination maybe two times and that was over 10 years ago (although I'm going through it now).

One question you need to ask is how are the values perceived on the transparency. 18% and 12% are only half a stop difference, then there's how the transparency is viewed. You might find this interesting and I think the chart will answer some of your questions. The attached is from Jack Holm's paper Exposure Speed Relations and Tone Reproduction.
 

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I had no feedback to my text #238 so I obstinately go on with the reasoning:

If we now observe the charactheristic curve of Provia 100 ISO, the exposure of -1.1 corresponds to a density of around 1,15 by eyesight.
That corresponds to an opacity of 6.07 which, in turn, corresponds to a tranmission of 0.1647 or around 16,5%.

The density at middle grey at all ISO is - given the same exposure equation - always the same. For every level of light, for every film speed, middle grey must be the same middle grey so I expect the same density with small variations.

If we trust this source: http://dpanswers.com/content/tech_kfactor.php this 16.5% grey corresponds very closely to a lightmeter calibrated with K = 12.5 (15,7%, Sekonic should use this K).

So far, I am concluding that it all sticks very well, the circle is closed as I expected:

A light meter with K = 12.5 is calibrated to correctly render a 16% grey. When using the light meter, we obtain an exposure value, Hg, which is 1/3 of EV closer than the speed point of a slide film which is HR and, given ISO = 10 / HR, corresponds to an exposure of -1.0. So my lightmeter gives me an exposure of -1.1 which, in turn, gives me back my 16% middle grey on the projection screen.

Don't tell me there's something wrong because I would be very :cry: :smile:

And I even think that by using a light meter calibrated with K = 14, which would correspond to a 17.6% grey, I would actually get that grey on my slide.

Yes there are little variations due to small imperfections of the process, but the result will be "satisfactorily" where expected if all elements of the process are well executed.

You are a very quick study. We could quibble the Reflectance value but let's just say it is more of a reference than a calibration. The only thing we know for certain is the calibration levels and they are for K=12.5, any other value of K means there's a change in one of the variables that make up K. The next two paragraphs are a re-post that should help illustrate my point.

Here's something else to think about. P/q = K. So 8.11/.65 = 12.5. What if the lens had a lower transmittance and q equals 0.58 instead of 0.65? 8.11/.58 = 14. This is basically K. So a K of 14 will produce a camera setting that will let more light into the camera, but if the lens has a q of 0.58, the same amount of light will hit the film plane as a lens with a q or 0.65 and a K of 12.5. The idea is to create the same exposure at the film plane. Don't forget the ratio from the speed point to the metered exposure point. This and the film speed sets where the exposure should fall.

There's another proof I thought I'd share. The ISO standard has K1 = L*t*S / A2 as the calibration equation. Example, 3200 * 1/100 *100 / 256 = 12.5. Notice how it's basically the exposure equation without q? If you recall P/K = q. The ISO version of the calibration equation clear shows that K is primarily about the camera's optical system. Exposure equation: (q*Lg / A2) * t = Hg

With both values of K, the exposure will fall at P/ISO (8/ISO). If you skimmed over the relationships of the constants P, K, and q in Connelly, you should go back and take a closer look. It will give you a stronger understanding of the interrelationship between the exposure meter and camera exposure.
 

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Here's something else to think about. P/q = K. So 8.11/.65 = 12.5. What if the lens had a lower transmittance and q equals 0.58 instead of 0.65? 8.11/.58 = 14. This is basically K. So a K of 14 will produce a camera setting that will let more light into the camera, but if the lens has a q of 0.58, the same amount of light will hit the film plane as a lens with a q or 0.65 and a K of 12.5. The idea is to create the same exposure at the film plane.

K = 14 and K = 12.5 both aim for effectively the same equivalent subject reflectance.

And the difference between these two K values only accounts for how pessimistic the meter is regarding how much light will make it to the film.

They're both aiming for the same result. That's fun.

I estimate that a meter with K = 14 is going to recommend opening up 1/10th of a stop compared to a meter with K = 12.5
 

ic-racer

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Sorry, my bad. It's from the appendix in Dunn's Exposure Manual. It appears to be based from a graph in the paper Safety Factors.
Thank you for your reply. The reason I ask is that I actually use non-TTL averaging reflected light metering (6-degree 'view') and have used that system since the 1970s when I got my first 6-degree meter. I wanted to read the text to see how my method of reflected meter exposure index calibration fits in with the others.
 

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P is the important constant in this. It's the same as K1 (not to be confused with K) from the exposure meter standard. This is where Hg will fall for a given film speed. 8/100 = 0.080 for 100 speed film. HR in Connelly and currently Hm in the current standard is determined. This as well as HF and HS can be known points of density. The speed equation will produce a film speed value that will want to put the exposure Hg 1/3 stop to the left of HR.

Do you refer to equation [15], page 190, Connolly? As it is, it poses HR = Hg.
I don't think you do, because you tell me Hg is 1/3 EV to the left of HR.

Connolly proceeds by saying: "It is to be noted that film manufacturers are re-assessing...and may require a change...". Do you mean that they have actually reassessed and the change was granted?
That would lead us to the difference of 1/3 EV between Hg and HR.
I suppose you are referrring to this.

Is it correct to state that, in this case, we have a K = 11.6? (It is equation (16) immediately below, the scan is a bit confused).

This paper only deals with reflected exposure meters, and there are two types, integrated and spot. For spot, the Hg will be from anything you point at. For an integrated meter for a statistically average scene and basically the calibration Luminance, it's 12%. This comes from the calibration Luminance value as compared to the calibration Illuminance value. I don't use incident meter and haven't spent nearly as much time on them. I've only read The Incident Light Method of Exposure Determination maybe two times and that was over 10 years ago (although I'm going through it now).

As far as I understand, spot and average reflected light meters work exactly the same. Spot, pointed at anything, will give me a value Hg which will give me a certain shade of grey whichever the brightness of the object. There is only one shade of grey for which Hg is the correct exposure, factory determined "target grey". If the object I point the spot meter at is whiter than target grey, the slide will be underexposed (and make the object appear target grey). If the object I point the spot meter at is darker, the exposure will be overexposed (and appear target grey).

An integrated light meter has the advantage of being able to calculate the light transmission exactly, but the "average" scene that it sees (the determined "target grey", that is, supposing target grey is an average of the world reflectance) is the result of the same kind of arbitrary choice that the exposure maker makes with a spot light meter. Basically the light meter wants to "guess" the reflectance of the target, and the guess that minimizes exposure mistakes is the average.
There are two averages here: the average reflectance of the world, and the average reflectance in the scene. If they coincide, the exposure is correct. If the scene is let's say high-key, no cigar.

I quote Ralph Lambrecht in another thread: "it is my understanding that the 18% reflection value is based on a Kodak field study, conducted by Condit in the 1940s, where he took readings of over 100 scenes around Rochester, determining an 18% reflection average and a 7 1/3 avg SBR;". I have read something similar as well. I would be very surprised if human vision placed "middle" tone in a place that doesn't correspond with "middle" tone in the general world. And I would be generally surprised if "target grey" for separate spot light meters was different from "statistically average scene" for integrated light meters. That would cause a lot of head scratching and, frankly, would make no sense from a practical point of view.
In my view either all reflected light meters of the same maker are calibrated around 12%, or they are all calibrated around 18%, or whatever same shade of grey (be it "on a spot" or "average in the scene").

One question you need to ask is how are the values perceived on the transparency. 18% and 12% are only half a stop difference, then there's how the transparency is viewed. You might find this interesting and I think the chart will answer some of your questions. The attached is from Jack Holm's paper Exposure Speed Relations and Tone Reproduction.

That's very interesting, thanks very much.
That also leaves me perplexed.
I understand that there must be some "compression" of tones when printing a slide on paper. That will be dealt by the printer but I do understand one might "optimize" exposure in advance for the printing process, just like one might optimize it, let's say, for the scanning process.

What raises my surprise is the difference there is between the theoretical exposure for middle grey and the suggested exposure, when optimization is for the projection on a screen.

The more I study this, the more I get confused, really.

Half a stop is the difference between a properly exposed white marble façade and a burned white marble façade. To me, whether the meter is calibrated to 12% or 18% makes a world of difference. And I have always considered it calibrated to 18% obtaining, with my Minolta spot meter, a very precise and expected placement of high lights (and when I went one day with my Gossen Sixtino, a very defective and useless piece of equipment, to take pictures I basically spoiled several shots of Villa Pamphili because the walls came out washed up, lacking in detail in a very unnice way).

EDIT: considering that burning the highlights is what spoils a slide, it might be that the table suggests, basically, an ample "margin of safety", a marked underexposure of slides, counting on the adjustment of human vision after the first slide. But they must all be underexposed in the same way, or it wouldn't work.
And besides, a nocturne picture with this underexposure would become sad to look at, considering the amount of scene that would disappear into Dmax like into a black hole.
 
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Diapositivo

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Now there's some fun. Because with K = 10.64 using cd/m2 then K in Imperial units would have been really close to 1

It is my understanding that, because it was close to 1, it was outstripped from published formulas of the time. That's why Saint Ansel was very surprised in finding, one day, that there was this K stuff which was, to him, an unnecessary distortion.
In reality, the K factor was already there, but was close to 1 in US literature, and 10.64 in International System literature.
When the K factor was raised to 12.5 (I think, or thought, this was because of the recognising of the higher light transmission of modern lenses) the K factor appeared in all formulas, both US and IS. This disturbed Adams but, in fact, what was actually disturbing him was the raise from 10.64 to 12.5. That's around 1/5 of EV but complicates the calculations that Adams used to do and the formulas he published in his books, I believe.
That's the conjecture by Conrad, 2003, http://www.largeformatphotography.info/articles/conrad-meter-cal.pdf
and I found it quoted here: http://dpanswers.com/content/tech_kfactor.php#adams2

And I thought, but I think Stephan told me I'm wrong, that this same modification caused the revision of the Hg for slide film, setting it 1/3 EV away from the slide film speed point.
 
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Do you refer to equation [15], page 190, Connolly? As it is, it poses HR = Hg.
I don't think you do, because you tell me Hg is 1/3 EV to the left of HR.

Connolly proceeds by saying: "It is to be noted that film manufacturers are re-assessing...and may require a change...". Do you mean that they have actually reassessed and the change was granted?
That would lead us to the difference of 1/3 EV between Hg and HR.
I suppose you are referrring to this.

Is it correct to state that, in this case, we have a K = 11.6? (It is equation (16) immediately below, the scan is a bit confused).



As far as I understand, spot and average reflected light meters work exactly the same. Spot, pointed at anything, will give me a value Hg which will give me a certain shade of grey whichever the brightness of the object. There is only one shade of grey for which Hg is the correct exposure, factory determined "target grey". If the object I point the spot meter at is whiter than target grey, the slide will be underexposed (and make the object appear target grey). If the object I point the spot meter at is darker, the exposure will be overexposed (and appear target grey).

An integrated light meter has the advantage of being able to calculate the light transmission exactly, but the "average" scene that it sees (the determined "target grey", that is, supposing target grey is an average of the world reflectance) is the result of the same kind of arbitrary choice that the exposure maker makes with a spot light meter. Basically the light meter wants to "guess" the reflectance of the target, and the guess that minimizes exposure mistakes is the average.
There are two averages here: the average reflectance of the world, and the average reflectance in the scene. If they coincide, the exposure is correct. If the scene is let's say high-key, no cigar.

I quote Ralph Lambrecht in another thread: "it is my understanding that the 18% reflection value is based on a Kodak field study, conducted by Condit in the 1940s, where he took readings of over 100 scenes around Rochester, determining an 18% reflection average and a 7 1/3 avg SBR;". I have read something similar as well. I would be very surprised if human vision placed "middle" tone in a place that doesn't correspond with "middle" tone in the general world. And I would be generally surprised if "target grey" for separate spot light meters was different from "statistically average scene" for integrated light meters. That would cause a lot of head scratching and, frankly, would make no sense from a practical point of view.
In my view either all reflected light meters of the same maker are calibrated around 12%, or they are all calibrated around 18%, or whatever same shade of grey (be it "on a spot" or "average in the scene").



That's very interesting, thanks very much.
That also leaves me perplexed.
I understand that there must be some "compression" of tones when printing a slide on paper. That will be dealt by the printer but I do understand one might "optimize" exposure in advance for the printing process, just like one might optimize it, let's say, for the scanning process.

What raises my surprise is the difference there is between the theoretical exposure for middle grey and the suggested exposure, when optimization is for the projection on a screen.

The more I study this, the more I get confused, really.

Half a stop is the difference between a properly exposed white marble façade and a burned white marble façade. To me, whether the meter is calibrated to 12% or 18% makes a world of difference. And I have always considered it calibrated to 18% obtaining, with my Minolta spot meter, a very precise and expected placement of high lights (and when I went one day with my Gossen Sixtino, a very defective and useless piece of equipment, to take pictures I basically spoiled several shots of Villa Pamphili because the walls came out washed up, lacking in detail in a very unnice way).

EDIT: considering that burning the highlights is what spoils a slide, it might be that the table suggests, basically, an ample "margin of safety", a marked underexposure of slides, counting on the adjustment of human vision after the first slide. But they must all be underexposed in the same way, or it wouldn't work.
And besides, a nocturne picture with this underexposure would become sad to look at, considering the amount of scene that would disappear into Dmax like into a black hole.

K = 11.6 when q = 0.69. As you can see K is primarily about the camera optical system. As Connelly writes, the value of q "in consequence provides the relationship between the quantities of Lg and Eg. Or in other words, the subject and the camera image.

That was HR*S = 8, from which follows that k2 = Hg/HR = 1. Connelly uses k1 and k2 for the ratio between B&W speed point and Hg, k1 and reversal color speed point and Hg, k2. Basically he is saying that the old speed point for reversal color was at the same exposure as Hg.

I like the first couple of paragraphs in section 2.2 of Calibration Levels.

"The essential characteristic of a photograph is that it portrays a differing pattern of luminance comprising the object being photographed, but equation (3) (Eg = q(Lg/A2)), which it is indented to use in assessing the exposure required for this range of luminance uses a single value of luminance Lg. The validity of the exposure determination method must, therefore, depend upon the acceptability of the resulting photographs which are produced by substituting a single value of luminance in the determination of exposure to represent the multiplicity of values of luminance of the scene itself.

In practice exposure determined by this substitution is satisfactory only for what may be termed average scenes. Unusual distributions of luminance require special exposure assessment.

From the point of view of the film, satisfactory photography depends upon the proper location on its exposure density characteristic of the densities produced by the image illumination within the camera. The greatest and least significant luminance in the scene are required to cause exposure of the film within the usable part of its exposure density characteristic. This implies that the important characteristics of the luminance are:

(i) the ratio of its maximum to it minimum value
(ii) its absolute value (of maximum or minimum)

For the former determines whether of not the film can reproduce the contrast range of the scene and the latter determines the exposure time necessary to provide an exposure which will locate the brightness scale (luminance range) of the scene correctly relative to the film characteristic."

Ralph was referring to the first excellent print test and series of papers by Jones, but they never mention 18%. However, this is basically where the psychophysical determination phrase which is used when the subject of K1 (P) is referenced.

Meters are not calibration for a Reflectance. It's an extrapolation using the calibration Luminance and Illuminance. I don't think it's as important as you might think. Connelly talks more about reversal color film in The Incident Light Method of Exposure Determination.
 
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