Kodak Black and White Vs Kodak Black and White Plus (c41 bw films), is there a difference?

[TheGreatGasMaskMan]

I found this, it seems to indicate vario pan xl is iso 400
https://books.google.com/books?id=C...v=onepage&q=shooting agfapan vario xl&f=false

 

[MattKing]

Near the bottom left corner of page 85 of that article they seem to be suggesting 600.

 

[TheGreatGasMaskMan]

Near the bottom left corner of page 85 of that article they seem to be suggesting 600.

Thank you. I missed that.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Unfortunately, I don't do my own c41 developing. just standard BW.

Probably not worth getting a C-41 kit for just two rolls, but it might be if you're tempted by XP2 Super. Yes, you can process it in B&W chems, but it's got less grain in C-41, and there's the option for "free" speed increase of about one stop if you bleach bypass. I've done bleach bypass with Kodak T400CN.

 

[TheGreatGasMaskMan]

Probably not worth getting a C-41 kit for just two rolls, but it might be if you're tempted by XP2 Super. Yes, you can process it in B&W chems, but it's got less grain in C-41, and there's the option for "free" speed increase of about one stop if you bleach bypass. I've done bleach bypass with Kodak T400CN.

I do shoot a good amount of regular cn film as it is- but part of my reason for not doing my own c41 or even e6 is that I don't have a reliable way to control water temperature. I'm ok with developing my bw films a little under 68º, but if color requires exact temperatures, I don't know how confident I'd be in my abilities.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Probably not worth getting a C-41 kit for just two rolls, but it might be if you're tempted by XP2 Super. Yes, you can process it in B&W chems, but it's got less grain in C-41.

Which B&W developer did you use for developing XP2 Super?

 

[Donald Qualls]

I haven't processed XP2 Super yet, and my first roll (coming up as soon as I get some more gloves to wear while processing) will be in C-41 with bleach bypass. There's an article, however, linked on Ilford's web site, about someone who processes that film in B&W chemistry, including significant pushes, and pulls as low as EI 50. Looks just like Delta 400, to my eye.

That said, I'm certain that wouldn't work well with Kodak's product, at least the ones I've handled, due to the orange base. Ilford put a light pink base on theirs; just enough correction to print on RA4, but not enough to make it a PITA to print on silver gelatin. You can check if your Agfa film is amenable to that by clipping a piece of the leader and dropping it into B&W rapid fixer. If it clears to orange like color negative film, it'll be hard to print on regular paper (especially multigrade). If it clears to a lighter shade, it might work well in whatever developer you'd normally use for, say, APX 400.

 

[foc]

Another attempt at monochrome prints was EKTAMAX Paper. This was an RC paper for RA-4 paper process. Rather than producing CMY dye image
from respective RGB records the print dyes were " mixed" to produce a near neutral print image. This was used in the school picture and commercial lab business. It allowed making b&w prints from color negatives using existing printers and RA-4 paper process. It allowed the labs to provide and additional product using existing printers and processes.

At the weekend I was cleaning out my storeroom in my closed minilab and found a roll of damaged Ektamax paper. It brought back memories.

I always liked the Agfa Vario XL compared to Ilford XP1. Of course, XP2 super is a big improvement.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

I haven't processed XP2 Super yet

Ah, Ok! You may want to with XTol (replenished). You will be pleased with the grain and the tonality (EI:100).

 

[TheGreatGasMaskMan]

If I may, I'll reveal my true intentions for this thread and the vario xl iso question:
Sometime last year, I formulated a question: what would happen if I cross processed a chromogenic bw film in e6? so sometime last summer I got myself an xp2 super, shot it at iso 100, had it pushed two stops, and here was the result:

Then, sometime late December/ early January, I tried it again with a 2011 expired Kodak BW400CN. The results were in fact quite different, ISO 80, pushed two stops:

So a little time passed, and I knew Kodak had previously made a different emulsion, and I knew I had some rolls, but was confused because they had different labels. Therefore, I made this thread to find out what the difference was (and if there was any difference with portra 400 bw). But there was an unintended consequence- this thread brought my attention to the existence of agfa vario pan and konica monochrome 400 (I'd previously heard of fuji neopan bw400cn).
I recently crossed a Kodak BW+ (aka Kodak BWTCN 400), but don't have scans yet. If you're willing to wait until Thursday, I can get some digital shots of the slides. it's definitely my favorite cross process so far.
Anyway... I just got my hands on some AGFA Variopan xl from a domestic seller, saw the variable ISO, and wanted to be confident of what the original iso was before I shot them- especially since this film is not readily available to buy. My intention is to first shoot one and process it in c41, then do an e6 cross process.
I'd like to do the same with the fuji and Konica BWCNs, but those are only available from international sellers, so I'm going to wait until I move to order some.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Ah, Ok! You may want to with XTol (replenished). You will be pleased with the grain and the tonality (EI:100).

As noted above, my first two rolls (one 35mm and one 120) are slated for bleach bypass, shot at EI800. To me, this (if it works at least as well as it did with T400CN) is one of the biggest reasons to pay for XP2 vs, say, Fomapan 400: 800 speed with grain comparable to TMax 400 in Xtol or D-76. Or pull to 400 and get grain like a conventional grain 100 speed.

I'm likely to keep C-41 chemistry on hand anyway; color is the only kind of film it's easy to buy locally, and consumer color films are cheaper than even the cheapest B&W. Because of that, I'll have the choice to process the XP2 as designed, or by bleach bypass, or in Xtol, or Parodinal (once I get a batch mixed up).

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

As noted above, my first two rolls (one 35mm and one 120) are slated for bleach bypass, shot at EI800. To me, this (if it works at least as well as it did with T400CN) is one of the biggest reasons to pay for XP2

@Pixophrenic did some interesting experimentation with bleach bypass on XP2 Super. I don't know for sure if he shot the film at EI800.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Sometime last year, I formulated a question: what would happen if I cross processed a chromogenic bw film in e6? so sometime last summer I got myself an xp2 super, shot it at iso 100, had it pushed two stops, and here was the result:

Interesting result! The colour cast is something one has to live with when XP2 Super is processed in colour chemistry to produce dye-based slides. IIRC @thuggins also observed cyan cast when he cross-processed XP2 Super to produce slides.

FWIW XP2 Super gives better looking slides if it is treated like a B&W film and reversal processed for silver-based B&W slides.

 

[TheGreatGasMaskMan]

Interesting result! The colour cast is something one has to live with when XP2 Super is processed in colour chemistry to produce dye-based slides. IIRC @thuggins also observed cyan cast when he cross-processed XP2 Super to produce slides.

FWIW XP2 Super gives better looking slides if it is treated like a B&W film and reversal processed for silver-based B&W slides.

wait until I show you the bw+, it's a mix of greys and the orange base.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

wait until I show you the bw+, it's a mix of greys and the orange base.

XP2 Super and orange base? That's interesting! Can you share some pics?

 

[TheGreatGasMaskMan]

XP2 Super and orange base? That's interesting! Can you share some pics?

Might have misread,The orange based cross processed film Kodak Black and White plus. I can't share any images until thursday, as I don't have access to a scanner right now, but I can take some close ups of the slides when I go to the camera store. It should be worth the wait though.

 

[Ernst-Jan]

Which B&W developer did you use for developing XP2 Super?

I developed a roll XP2 (not super, expired in 1997) that I found in Rodinal. Apart from signs of the backing paper, the pictures turned out fine. Times can be found on massive dev chart.

 

[Ernst-Jan]

I wonder how the sales of Ilford C41 XP2 Plus compares with other trad b&w Ilford films? It always struck me that Ilford regarded XP2 Super as a success

From what I read/heard, on some products Ilford accepts to make loss. They don't want to cause unrest, so as long they can compensate the loss with other products it's fine.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

I developed a roll XP2 (not super, expired in 1997) that I found in Rodinal. Apart from signs of the backing paper, the pictures turned out fine. Times can be found on massive dev chart.

Nice! Never had the opportunity to shoot the old XP but I've had only good results developing XP2 Super in b&w developers.

 

[laser]

All the b&W chromogenic films were nominally 400.

 

[TheGreatGasMaskMan]

OK, here's some physical digital snapshots of my cross processed Kodak Black and White Plus. I'd really like to have these scanned.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

OK, here's some physical digital snapshots of my cross processed Kodak Black and White Plus. I'd really like to have these scanned.

Very interesting looking slides! Thanks for sharing.

 

[TheGreatGasMaskMan]

Very interesting looking slides! Thanks for sharing.

sure thing.

 

[TheGreatGasMaskMan]

Alright, another question-
is the fuji 400CN still being made? I'm browsing ebay, and there is one listing citing a 12/20 expiratory date.
I know fuji doesn't sell all the films it makes in north america, but I thought only ilford still made c41 bw film- which begs the question, is the fuji bwcn exactly the same as xp2? I mean I've read a few sources saying ilford at least finished fuji's bwcn.

 

[Paul Howell]

From what I understand only sold in the UK. You might be able get from ebay sellers. Just checked, you can get from ebay from the UK. Don't understand why onl the UK as Ilford makes a version while Kodak abandoned CN, seems like the US would a better market.