Kodak Black and White Vs Kodak Black and White Plus (c41 bw films), is there a difference?

[TheGreatGasMaskMan]

So, I've got some expired kodak black and white, and black and white plus 35mm rolls in my collection- some dated, some not. From what I've looked up the two films were made around the same time, but I'm wondering if there's any difference between the two?

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

C41 needs to be developed in C41.

 

[pentaxuser]

So you have two Kodak b&w films, both of which require the C41 process. The difference is in their names, namely once of them is called Plus.

Your question is, I think : Are there any other differences other than the use of the word "Plus"

I have no answer but hopefully I have clarified the question for others.

If I have done the opposite and muddied the waters further then please respond to avoid the thread straying from its true path

pentaxuser

 

[TheGreatGasMaskMan]

So you have two Kodak b&w films, both of which require the C41 process. The difference is in their names, namely once of them is called Plus.

Your question is, I think : Are there any other differences other than the use of the word "Plus"

I have no answer but hopefully I have clarified the question for others.

If I have done the opposite and muddied the waters further then please respond to avoid the thread straying from its true path

pentaxuser

This is basically what I wanted to know- if the slightly differently named films were different or not, but,
There is one other difference...










the plus has a grey label and the normal has a black label.

 

[pentaxuser]

I can only find the label Kodak Professional BW400CN in a black grey and yellow box. Can you show pictures of both boxes? Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[TheGreatGasMaskMan]

I can only find the label Kodak Professional BW400CN in a black grey and yellow box. Can you show pictures of both boxes? Thanks

pentaxuser

So, I have not found any regular bw boxes but I do have a bwcn and bw+ box, but I don't have them at my place but here's the canisters

 

[TheGreatGasMaskMan]

I can only find the label Kodak Professional BW400CN in a black grey and yellow box. Can you show pictures of both boxes? Thanks

pentaxuser

but here's some ebay pictures of boxes

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks. From what I can see there is nothing on the first two cassettes or the boxes to indicate that these are other than traditional b&w films whereas the BW400CN does mention C41 It just seem strange if these are C41 films that Kodak hasn't indicated this but has done for BW400CN.

I know very little about Kodak's film history but I am tempted to ask if you are sure that the the first two are in fact C41

What I also find surprisingly is why we appear to have no Kodak experts who recall these films and can give definite answers to what seems to be reasonable questions or have chosen not to reply

pentaxuser

 

[foc]

If I remember correctly, Kodak BW400CN and Kodak select are the same film just with different names and again AFAIK were sold in different markets. Note the banner on the box "process anywhere". Kodak film cassettes always display what process the film is, C41, E6, B&W.

Kodak only made the one type of chromogenic (C41) B&W film and it had the orange mask, like a colour film. This often caused problems in minilabs when the operator thought it was a colour film and printed it like one (not set to B&W desaturate) and the prints came out with colour casts.

There were other manufacturers of chromogenic B&W films, Ilfordwith XP1, XP2, XP2 Super. Agfa with Vario XL. Konica with Monochrome VX400. The Konica film was very like the Kodak BW400CN.

So to answer the OP question, if the films all says C41 on the cassette then they are the same.

 

[TheGreatGasMaskMan]

Thanks. From what I can see there is nothing on the first two cassettes or the boxes to indicate that these are other than traditional b&w films whereas the BW400CN does mention C41 It just seem strange if these are C41 films that Kodak hasn't indicated this but has done for BW400CN.

I know very little about Kodak's film history but I am tempted to ask if you are sure that the the first two are in fact C41

What I also find surprisingly is why we appear to have no Kodak experts who recall these films and can give definite answers to what seems to be reasonable questions or have chosen not to reply

pentaxuser

The canisters all say process c41 only on them. You can see it in the shadows of my normal bw, but I didn't orient the plus to show it. I guess the process anywhere on the one ebay box is the indication.

 

[pentaxuser]

So there you are; Kodak had a serious attack of the marketing disease that turned people in NY into Madmen whereby you earned a great salary by re-inventing the same film via different names.

We blame the internet/Facebook etc for the "something new even if it isn't new" phenomenon but it precedes current times and just relies on companies having more money than sense which Kodak would have had then

pentaxuser

 

[Henning Serger]

but here's some ebay pictures of boxes View attachment 240001 View attachment 240002 View attachment 240003

There have been indeed two versions (technically) of this chromogenic C41 Kodak BW Film: The first version, introduced in 1998 if I remember correctly, were labelled "T 400 CN" in most major markets.
I have used this film first time in 1999 and got excellent results. Have made some of my "all time favourits" on it.
The box you have showed first - the Kodak Select with "New! Process anywhere" on the box - has a similar design like the T 400 CN. So likeley it is this first version.

Later as a successor, the BW 400 CN was introduced. It was more optimised for making BW prints on RA-4 colour negative paper. Target customers were people who wanted BW prints from their minilabs.

Both films were the most fined grained ISO 400/27° BW films ever produced, even slightly surpassing T-Max 400 (TMY-2) in that regard. But TMY-2 is sharper and has higher resolution.

For you it is quite simple: All films have to be processed in the standard C41 process.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[TheGreatGasMaskMan]

There have been indeed two versions (technically) of this chromogenic C41 Kodak BW Film: The first version, introduced in 1998 if I remember correctly, were labelled "T 400 CN" in most major markets.
I have used this film first time in 1999 and got excellent results. Have made some of my "all time favourits" on it.
The box you have showed first - the Kodak Select with "New! Process anywhere" on the box - has a similar design like the T 400 CN. So likeley it is this first version.

Later as a successor, the BW 400 CN was introduced. It was more optimised for making BW prints on RA-4 colour negative paper. Target customers were people who wanted BW prints from their minilabs.

Both films were the most fined grained ISO 400/27° BW films ever produced, even slightly surpassing T-Max 400 (TMY-2) in that regard. But TMY-2 is sharper and has higher resolution.

For you it is quite simple: All films have to be processed in the standard C41 process.

Best regards,
Henning

I have two, frozen 2001 expired 120 TCN rolls and was considering asking about those as well, but that does fit in with your timeline- as one of my 35mm rolls is dated out at 2001, and (strangely) I've got a 2004 expired roll in a tmax 400 canister I don't remember where it came from. and my bwcn 35mm expired in 2008. I read (on wikipedia mind you) that the bwcn replaced the older c41 bw in 2004. Also... what about portra 400bw?

 

[Henning Serger]

I have two, frozen 2001 expired 120 TCN rolls and was considering asking about those as well, but that does fit in with your timeline- as one of my 35mm rolls is dated out at 2001, and (strangely) I've got a 2004 expired roll in a tmax 400 canister I don't remember where it came from. and my bwcn 35mm expired in 2008. I read (on wikipedia mind you) that the bwcn replaced the older c41 bw in 2004. Also... what about portra 400bw?

If I remember right, Portra 400 BW has been another label / packaging for the later BW 400 CN emulsion. Different packagings for different markets.
AFAIK - from a technical point of view - there has been only these two versions: T 400 CN as the first one, and BW 400 CN as the later one, the successor.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[laser]

There have been indeed two versions (technically) of this chromogenic C41 Kodak BW Film: The first version, introduced in 1998 if I remember correctly, were labelled "T 400 CN" in most major markets.
I have used this film first time in 1999 and got excellent results. Have made some of my "all time favourits" on it.
The box you have showed first - the Kodak Select with "New! Process anywhere" on the box - has a similar design like the T 400 CN. So likeley it is this first version.

Later as a successor, the BW 400 CN was introduced. It was more optimised for making BW prints on RA-4 colour negative paper. Target customers were people who wanted BW prints from their minilabs.

Both films were the most fined grained ISO 400/27° BW films ever produced, even slightly surpassing T-Max 400 (TMY-2) in that regard. But TMY-2 is sharper and has higher resolution.

For you it is quite simple: All films have to be processed in the standard C41 process.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning has got it right. I'll add to his comment:

Prior to T-Max film we (Kodak) id some experimentation with chromogenic B&W films. We had a 400 speed C41 film with far grain to Tri-X or the otehr B&W C41 films on the market. The film provided an image that was a hybrid dye silver grain image. This was achieved by using a bleach restrainer in the emulsion. We had limited resources so we

There have been indeed two versions (technically) of this chromogenic C41 Kodak BW Film: The first version, introduced in 1998 if I remember correctly, were labelled "T 400 CN" in most major markets.
I have used this film first time in 1999 and got excellent results. Have made some of my "all time favourits" on it.
The box you have showed first - the Kodak Select with "New! Process anywhere" on the box - has a similar design like the T 400 CN. So likeley it is this first version.

Later as a successor, the BW 400 CN was introduced. It was more optimised for making BW prints on RA-4 colour negative paper. Target customers were people who wanted BW prints from their minilabs.

Both films were the most fined grained ISO 400/27° BW films ever produced, even slightly surpassing T-Max 400 (TMY-2) in that regard. But TMY-2 is sharper and has higher resolution.

For you it is quite simple: All films have to be processed in the standard C41 process.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[laser]

To expand on Henning's comments:

In 1981-82, prior to T-Max Film, we (Kodak) did some experimentation with chromogenic B&W films. Much of this was done in the Kodak Ltd. Research Lab in Harrow, England. We had a 400 speed b&w Process C-41 film with grain that was much better than TRI-X or the other B&W C-41 films on the market. The film provided an image that was a hybrid dye-and-silver image. This was achieved by using a bleach restrainer in the emulsion. We had limited resources so we chose to pursue T-MAX Films. Even in retrospect this was the best decision. This technology was never commercialized. A major factor in never pursuing this was it was not reasonable to place future constraints on Process C-41 in order to make a performance improvement in a very small volume product.

Later, after higher priority projects were completed , T 400 CN was commercialized using more conventional dye-only technology. This was intended to be printed on BW Paper using enlargers etc. It competed successfully with Agfa VARIO PAN and ILFORD XP1 and XP2.

Later various b&w films for C-41 process were sold that could be printed to color papers producing almost monochrome prints. This required a special printing channel on automatic color printers. It could also be printed on b&w paper but required long exposure times.

Another attempt at monochrome prints was EKTAMAX Paper. This was an RC paper for RA-4 paper process. Rather than producing CMY dye image
from respective RGB records the print dyes were " mixed" to produce a near neutral print image. This was used in the school picture and commercial lab business. It allowed making b&w prints from color negatives using existing printers and RA-4 paper process. It allowed the labs to provide and additional product using existing printers and processes.

The next generation was PORTRA 400 BW. One of the advantages of PORTRA Films was that all the PORTRA Films could be printed using the same analysis and printing channels. This allowed labs to handle all PORTRA Films the same no need to segregate films. This was a major driver in making PORTRA Films a huge success for Kodak. PORTRA 400 BW had the same color characteristics as otehr PORTRA Films so it could be analyzed and printed with other PORTRA Films. This allowed prolabs to make monochrome prints on RA-4 paper. From a prolab point of view it provided additional products using existing printers and processes.

BW films for Process C-41 was not a big volume or success for any of the film manufacturers. However, it was another product that met a need that could be provided with little cost.

Bob Shanebrook

www.makingKODAKfilm.com

 

[TheGreatGasMaskMan]

This has been interesting and informative. The last thing I have to add is that other than my weird, tmax canistered roll I think came off ebay, I've found both the regular black and white, and black and white plus 35mm rolls all in my area- most being in the expired film bin at my camera store. I bought my 120 tcns from a friend in the area.

 

[Henning Serger]

Henning has got it right. I'll add to his comment:

.............

Hello Bob,

thank you very much for your all your very interesting additional information! It is really appreciated, and certainly not only by me, but all members here.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[pentaxuser]

To expand on Henning's comments:
BW films for Process C-41 was not a big volume or success for any of the film manufacturers. However, it was another product that met a need that could be provided with little cost.

Bob Shanebrook

www.makingKODAKfilm.com

I wonder how the sales of Ilford C41 XP2 Plus compares with other trad b&w Ilford films? It always struck me that Ilford regarded XP2 Super as a success

If I were a beginner in film and had a specific interest in b&w but no interest or facilities to process myself then given the scarcity of labs in the U.K. doing b&w processing then XP2 Super would be my choice. I cannot speak for the ease or cost comparison with which b&w processing may be found elsewhere

pentaxuser

 

[Kodachromeguy]

To expand on Henning's comments:

The next generation was PORTRA 400 BW. One of the advantages of PORTRA Films was that all the PORTRA Films could be printed using the same analysis and printing channels. This allowed labs to handle all PORTRA Films the same no need to segregate films. This was a major driver in making PORTRA Films a huge success for Kodak. PORTRA 400 BW had the same color characteristics as otehr PORTRA Films so it could be analyzed and printed with other PORTRA Films. This allowed prolabs to make monochrome prints on RA-4 paper. From a prolab point of view it provided additional products using existing printers and processes.

BW films for Process C-41 was not a big volume or success for any of the film manufacturers. However, it was another product that met a need that could be provided with little cost.

Bob Shanebrook

www.makingKODAKfilm.com

Thank you. That is very interesting to hear from someone involved with the development of a product. I do not remember Portra 400 BW in the US market, but maybe I missed it. The last Kodak C-41 B&W film that I bought was BW 400CN in 135 size. I may have one roll left in the refrigerator. Another note: I think TMax 400 is finer grain, at least in the 135 size, but I never did any direct X-Y comparisons.

 

[Henning Serger]

I wonder how the sales of Ilford C41 XP2 Plus compares with other trad b&w Ilford films? It always struck me that Ilford regarded XP2 Super as a success

Well, it is an excellent film:
- sharpness, resolution and grain are even a little bit better compared to Delta 400 (the difference is very small, but there), and significantly better than HP5+
- to get perfect development is even easier with C41, because it is a standardized process; to get perfect results with conventional BW film you have to test and fit your BW film-developer combination to your individual processing parameters (optimal way is using a densitometer and evaluating the characteristic curve)
- the very wide latitude is attractive to users of old cameras without lightmeter (and users of "sunny 16"), and attractive to beginners
- it is very easy to make classic optical enlargements from XP2 Super
- it is a perfect BW film for use in single-use-cameras, and that Ilford is offering a SUC with this film is very clever.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

Another note: I think TMax 400 is finer grain, at least in the 135 size, but I never did any direct X-Y comparisons.

I have done direct comparisons of BW 400 CN and T-Max 400 (TMY-2) in my test lab. Results:
- BW 400 CN was a bit finer grained
but
- TMY-2 has higher resolution and better sharpness.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[TheGreatGasMaskMan]

Hey guys, it's been a while.
Does anyone know what the actual ISO of agfa vario pan xl is? I'm assuming 400, but the box says asa 125-1600. I have two rolls, both expired march 83. I'd assume iso 100 is what I'd shoot it at.

 

[Donald Qualls]

If we assume the same +3/-1 stop latitude that works well with XP2 Super (and many/most other C-41 films), it ought to be a "true" ISO 800. And from what I've read, C-41 films don't age fog as much as silver image films of the same speed -- if you have the ability to process it yourself, it might be worth shooting a short test, unloading in the dark, and cutting the test strip to load and process to see where you stand. You might be pleasantly surprised.

 

[TheGreatGasMaskMan]

If we assume the same +3/-1 stop latitude that works well with XP2 Super (and many/most other C-41 films), it ought to be a "true" ISO 800. And from what I've read, C-41 films don't age fog as much as silver image films of the same speed -- if you have the ability to process it yourself, it might be worth shooting a short test, unloading in the dark, and cutting the test strip to load and process to see where you stand. You might be pleasantly surprised.

Unfortunately, I don't do my own c41 developing. just standard BW.