Kodachrome

[Photo Engineer]

Development must go to completion. If you cut development time, then it might not. This could be quite bad. Reduction of coupler at the same development time will get it to go to completion but with less dye.

At least, that is my reasoning.

PE

 

[piratelogy]

Ok! Last test looks decent! Colors are a LOT more saturated, balance is still off a bit, but its looking promising!

 

[Nzoomed]

Development must go to completion. If you cut development time, then it might not. This could be quite bad. Reduction of coupler at the same development time will get it to go to completion but with less dye.

At least, that is my reasoning.

PE

Yes I agree, that lengthening would be better, although these chemicals are not the original, so may behave different, although I agree that the longer they are developed, the more dye is formed and may help with the life of the film post-developing.

Increasing the Cyan development time may be all thats needed, will wait and see.

 

[piratelogy]

Development must go to completion. If you cut development time, then it might not. This could be quite bad. Reduction of coupler at the same development time will get it to go to completion but with less dye.

At least, that is my reasoning.

PE

I can see the logic in that. I'll go that route in my next test run.

 

[piratelogy]

Looks like after halfing the time on my magenta layer while it looked good, comparing it to my color charts shows I've lost most of my reds... So it wasn't QUITE as effective as I first assumed. I have good yellows now, so there's that.

 

[piratelogy]

 

[piratelogy]

Also comparing the edge density to my non-PH adjusted test, I'm absolutely NOT developing to completion. So I should fix that.

 

[keenmaster486]

Things are looking up

 

[Nzoomed]

I see what you mean about the reds, but you have made good progress.
Yellows do appear good also.
Probably lengthening the cyan development time will correct that, and keep the full magenta development as before.

IIRC, you said you had to shorten the cyan development because it was overpowering?

 

[keenmaster486]

Probably lengthening the cyan development time will correct that, and keep the full magenta development as before.

IIRC, you said you had to shorten the cyan development because it was overpowering?

Yeah, so maybe you increase the cyan time and decrease the quantity of coupler like PE suggested?

 

[piratelogy]

I see what you mean about the reds, but you have made good progress.
Yellows do appear good also.
Probably lengthening the cyan development time will correct that, and keep the full magenta development as before.

IIRC, you said you had to shorten the cyan development because it was overpowering?

Yeah, Cyan was 3 min, yellow 8, and magenta 6 before I started mucking with PH. This last roll was cyan 3, yellow 8, magenta 3.

 

[falotico]

Your work is very interesting--and the portrait of your shoes is worthy of Van Gogh.

 

[piratelogy]

Your work is very interesting--and the portrait of your shoes is worthy of Van Gogh.

Lol! Thanks for the smiles falotico Now you know why I HATE shooting color cards

 

[Photo Engineer]

The overall contrast looks too high!

PE

 

[keenmaster486]

How do you know for sure just looking at a light table shot?

 

[Nzoomed]

OK, I have an update:

I dont know if PE or anyone can help or not, but I have just been contacted by one of the companies in china regarding the Kodachrome processing chemicals.

They have told me they should be able to produce the chemicals i mentioned, as they have the right intermediate chemicals, but they would like the CAS number for these chemicals.

I dont know if there was even a CAS number registered for these, as these are proprietary chemicals only used by Kodak?

Anyway, they may be able to help, but out of those yellow and magenta couplers in the patent, which ones should we go for?

I also see on the facebook page for the space shuttle film, that he has been working with Kelvin Kittle, but have (not surprisingly) made any progress.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Space-Shuttle-Film/156663554369586
If i have the exact chemical name for each coupler, i will forward this information to China.

If the K-lab can be fired up working with the right chemicals, it would be awesome!
Would also make it a breeze for piratelogy's processing, if we want to replicate K14 as much as possible.

 

[flavio81]

OK, I have an update:

I dont know if PE or anyone can help or not, but I have just been contacted by one of the companies in china regarding the Kodachrome processing chemicals.

They have told me they should be able to produce the chemicals i mentioned, as they have the right intermediate chemicals, but they would like the CAS number for these chemicals.

I dont know if there was even a CAS number registered for these, as these are proprietary chemicals only used by Kodak?

Anyway, they may be able to help, but out of those yellow and magenta couplers in the patent, which ones should we go for?

I also see on the facebook page for the space shuttle film, that he has been working with Kelvin Kittle, but have (not surprisingly) made any progress.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Space-Shuttle-Film/156663554369586
If i have the exact chemical name for each coupler, i will forward this information to China.

If the K-lab can be fired up working with the right chemicals, it would be awesome!
Would also make it a breeze for piratelogy's processing, if we want to replicate K14 as much as possible.

Amazing info Nzoomed!!!

So perhaps the Pirate-K14 process can finally turn into the real K14 process!!

 

[Nzoomed]

Amazing info Nzoomed!!!

So perhaps the Pirate-K14 process can finally turn into the real K14 process!!

Quite possible.
Is anyone able to point me in the right direction to couplers?

I believe only the cyan coupler is quoted in the patent, and PE has said that pyrazolones are the most stable and long lasting in terms of archival life.

This makes sense, as Azo dyes are extremley stable and resistant to fading, I also thought that Kodachrome couplers formed Azo dyes, but going by the patent, only the Cyan coupler is mentioned, and its not a pyrazolone compound.

There are pyrazolones mentioned in the other patents as quoted in post #166 for the magenta coupler, but no pyrazolone listed for Cyan or Yellow.

Im hoping to find the accurate couplers for K14 and we will hopefully be able to get them produced in china.

 

[Nzoomed]

I did NOT say to ignore those magenta couplers. I just stated that the structure shown was wrong for one coupler. Almost all magenta couplers today are pyrazolones.

PE

Im hoping you can help me here, is it typical to see pyrazolone couplers for the cyan and yellow layers?
Im pretty confident that only the magenta (for kodachrome anyway) was pyrazolone, is this correct?
If so, a company in china has told me they should be able to make the chemistry, as ive posted above.

They will even make us a small batch, but we will have to pay for the sample.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Cyan dyes are usually Napthol or Phenol derivatives. Magentas are usually Parazolone derivatives, and Yellows are usually Pivaloyl or Phenyl acetoyl derivatives. None of these form Azo dyes which are N=N dyes. These form Azo Methine dyes which are N=C dyes.

I don't know the CAS numbers.

PE

 

[Truzi]

I've never used Kodachrome, but as much as people do not like these Kodachrome threads, I do tend to enjoy them. Each time I learn a little more about it. Fascinating complexity (when I'm able to understand it, lol).

 

[Photo Engineer]

Im hoping you can help me here, is it typical to see pyrazolone couplers for the cyan and yellow layers?
Im pretty confident that only the magenta (for kodachrome anyway) was pyrazolone, is this correct?
If so, a company in china has told me they should be able to make the chemistry, as ive posted above.

They will even make us a small batch, but we will have to pay for the sample.

I missed this somehow.

Pyrazolones are NEVER used as Cyan or Yellow couplers.

Only the Magenta is now. In years gone by it was another compound which gave very unstable dyes. Nowdays, color paper and some films use new classes of couplers.

Edited to correct very bad error.

PE

 

[piratelogy]

So I ran another test this morning, this time doing all 3 developers at 6 minutes. It was still mostly just magenta. What is interesting is that BEFORE fixing and before the magenta dev I can examine the film because the last re-exposure is to white light, I had very noticeable deep blue dye in the blue layer, and yellow in the yellow. After Magenta and fixing the film is mostly just magenta. It seems like the dyes are coming out of the film somehow...

 

[Photo Engineer]

Or being destroyed?

What else has changed?

PE

 

[piratelogy]

Or being destroyed?

What else has changed?

PE

Just pushing the PH up, and running the devs all at 6 minutes.