Kodachrome as B&W Neg

[JohnMeadows]

I did some a while back using Rodinal, stand processed 1:100 at box speed and it turned out OK; the long soak in the developer seems to help loosen up the remjet.

 

[ektachrome]

Hi
I am just wondering how do you get rid of the remjet backing on this film?
Thanks
Ektachrome

 

[JohnMeadows]

If stand development doesn't loosen it enough, a borax solution should help; get a bunch of soft lint free cloths to use. It's a messy job!

 

[EASmithV]

Hm... Will DR5 process Kodachrome?

 

[bvy]

Interesting article about Alex Webb, wherein he talks about a current project involving shooting Kodachrome as black and white.

http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/...d-in-color-and-black-and-white/?smid=fb-share

 

[Bill Burk]

Has anyone just gone ahead and printed through the remjet? It's "only" 1.34 density.

 

[BradleyK]

After debating the issue, waffling, etc., I have decided to shoot some of my older "suspect" Kodachrome as black and white. To that end, I am wondering if any of those who have already done so have any thoughts regarding an appropriate ISO to use. My suspect stash is ISO 64. I am particularly impressed by the shot that Dan Murano posted earlier in this thread. As well, a second question for those who have done some experimenting: Is there a particular developer (are there a couple of developers?) that have worked well?

 

[ctsundevil]

I shot my Kodachrome 120 at an EI of 12.

Here is the process I used:

1. Rem-jet removal bath 2:30 (you can go longer, it won't hurt)
2. wash (vigorous agitation) 3:00
3. Develop 6:40
4. stop bath 0:30
5. fix 10:00 (I used Kodak Fixer)
6. hypo-eliminator 2:00
7. wash 6:00
8. bleach 2:00 - 3:00 (depends on strength of bleach, could be up to 8 minutes)
9. wash 2:00
10. fix 5:00
11. hypo-eliminator 2:00
12. wash 6:00
13. photo-flo 1:00

For the developer I used HC-110 Dilution B at 65 F
The bleach I used was the ferricyanide bleach from Kodak Sepia Toner.
The remjet removal solution I used was 100 grams of Sodium Sulfate and 20 grams of borax in 1 liter of water
I normally use stainless reels and tanks. Before the bleach step, I switched the film to a plastic reel and tank.
The negatives were easy to print and had good tonality.

 

[dmschnute]

Initial attempt with Kodachrome / B&W

Nothing to lose - this was 120 that at the time intended to be a color image.

I still have not decided what to make of this outcome. It has the ortho look of films of the 1920's, although my scanning-esthetic may have over-manipulated it to my liking. Rather grainy.

Developed in HC-110B, at half-again the usual time. The RemJet fell off after the fix in 1-tsp each of 20-muleteam borax and dishwasher detergent in a liter of water, with a wad of cotton. Afterward the usual HCA and wash.

What with the overall orange (this must disappear somehow when processed correctly) it probably won't print well in the usual way. Kodak used to have a paper intended for this sort of thing. The film has a thickness and curl that makes getting into the Coolscan holder a little tricky. Best to wear cotton gloves.

Tri-X it ain't, but I have half a mind to shoot the remaining unexposed film. Might be cool to be one of the few in this universe shooting Kodachrome film.

 

[StoneNYC]

Nothing to lose - this was 120 that at the time intended to be a color image.

I still have not decided what to make of this outcome. It has the ortho look of films of the 1920's, although my scanning-esthetic may have over-manipulated it to my liking. Rather grainy.

Developed in HC-110B, at half-again the usual time. The RemJet fell off after the fix in 1-tsp each of 20-muleteam borax and dishwasher detergent in a liter of water, with a wad of cotton. Afterward the usual HCA and wash.

What with the overall orange (this must disappear somehow when processed correctly) it probably won't print well in the usual way. Kodak used to have a paper intended for this sort of thing. The film has a thickness and curl that makes getting into the Coolscan holder a little tricky. Best to wear cotton gloves.

Tri-X it ain't, but I have half a mind to shoot the remaining unexposed film. Might be cool to be one of the few in this universe shooting Kodachrome film.

Wow thanks for sharing, I saw both examples posted on these 4 pages, this gives me hope Shooting Kodachrome will be fun again... except ya know, without the color part

 

[BradleyK]

Thanks for the quick replies folks; the "recipe" posted by ctsundevil will be one of those I try (I do have 20 rolls to experiment with). That said, does anyone have a developer/processing time recommendation that would allow me to shoot at something closer to box ISO. I usually work with a tripod, but the extra speed may be important/useful for some subject matter.

 

[StoneNYC]

Thanks for the quick replies folks; the "recipe" posted by ctsundevil will be one of those I try (I do have 20 rolls to experiment with). That said, does anyone have a developer/processing time recommendation that would allow me to shoot at something closer to box ISO. I usually work with a tripod, but the extra speed may be important/useful for some subject matter.

Well a good rule of thumb is 2 mintues push per stop... so add 4 minutes if you're going from EI12 to EI64

 

[bvy]

It's 2013 and this seems to be the state of affairs (in the US) related to C-41 processing kit availability:

- The Rollei-Digibase kit is gone. I called Freestyle -- first they said it was discontinued because of the packaging (Part C went bad quite often); then they said it was discontinued by the manufacturer. I have an inquiry in to the manufacturer (Agfa?).

- Freestyle sells Arista, Unicolor (both powder) and Tetenal (liquid) kits.

- B&H sells and will ship Tetenal powder kits.

(As far as I can tell, all of these kits use a blix and not a separate bleach and fix.)

- Photographer's Formulary doesn't seem to have any C-41 offerings at the moment.

- Kodak Flexicolor chemicals are still available, but packaging and availability is bewildering. Even so, it's sold in large liquid quantities, and seems impractical for occasional and casual home use.

Have I missed or misstated anything? I'm back to looking for a non-powder kit with separate bleach and fix.

 

[Photo Engineer]

How does this relate to the OP?

You have not missed anything except Trebla. Apparently, no one who makes kits wants to check the quality of what they do make.

PE

 

[bvy]

Oops! I picked the wrong sticky. I'll find a mod...

ETA: How embarrassing. I have a message in to Sean to delete it. I'll repost in the proper thread. And open my EYES this time...

 

[Photo Engineer]

Maybe he can move my comment as well.



PE

 

[falotico]

Kodachrome has a built in yellow colloidal silver filter

What with the overall orange (this must disappear somehow when processed correctly) it probably won't print well in the usual way.

Wasn't there a built-in yellow filter behind the blue sensitive emulsion layer in Kodachrome? It was made out of colloidal silver, IIRC, which a a form of silver that is naturally yellow in color. Thus it would serve to filter out the blue photons from the red and green sensitive layers (since these layers are also sensitive to blue light).

Apparently this colloidal silver layer is made out of metallic silver particles and not silver halide particles, else it would be fixed out in the hypo fixing bath. Since in normally processed Kodachrome the silver metal is bleached to ag+1 and then fixed, the colloidal silver is transformed into silver ions which will dissolve in hypo.

However, being colloidal, the silver metal particles might be very much smaller than typical grains and might be more susceptible to bleaching than the rest of the emulsion. Could a brief bleach selectively affect the colloidal silver only and not the image grains? Allowing just the yellow colloidal silver layer to be removed? Just asking if anyone knows.

 

[Photo Engineer]

There are instructions on Kodak's web site for bleaching this layer out.

PE

 

[pharmboycu]

Not trying to flog a deceased equine, but this thought popped in my head recently when I got back a roll of old Ektachrome E2 film that had been processed as B&W.

The company that did it said that it would be processed first as B&W and scanned. Then, if there were any recoverable images and a good chance of success, the roll would be further processed into color.

I truly do not know:

1) How this is possible if the color dyes (or what remains of them) are already in the emulsion
and
2) Is it possible that we could have our Kodachrome developed into a B&W and scanned *BUT* left in a state whereby if a viable process were to emerge in the future the film could still be converted into a color image, similar to what the company was going to do with my roll of Ektachrome E2?

Somehow I doubt that we could, but I am by no means well versed enough to figure this out. I did search the forum for an answer and was unable to locate one. P.E.-- out of curiosity, do you happen to know if this is possible?

Thanks!
John

 

[Photo Engineer]

John;

What you describe is possible with Ektachrome type films if it is not fixed after the B&W development, but not possible with Kodachrome type films. (one exception here though - the film must be unfixed and kept dark until that process comes along)

PE

 

[falotico]

Yellow filter layer of Kodachrome

Thanks to PE and his tip concerning how to bleach out the yellow filter layer in Kodachrome. Of course this layer is bleached and fixed out when Kodachrome is developed into color images, and presumably when Kodachrome is developed as a Black and White reversal. But the yellow layer remains when Kodachrome is developed as a Black and White negative.

Kodak published a document TECHNICAL DATA/COLOR FILMS in April 1999 which gave instructions on removing the yellow layer. It is called "Printing Color Films Developed as Black-and-White" and can be found on the internet at

www.[B]kodak.com/global/en/consumer/products/pdf/ae31.pdf

[/B]This yellow layer is composed of colloidal silver; that is silver grains so small that they can go into colloidal suspension. At this small size they interact more directly with light rays, apparently absorbing blue light more efficiently and thus appear yellow.

The instructions that Kodak gives are simply to mix 1 oz, 28 grams, of anhydrous citric acid into one gallon of Kodak Rapid Fixer which has been mixed to the proper concentration to fix films. The Kodachrome photos are fixed in this for 7-14 minutes at 75-80 degrees f, after having been soaked in Photo-flow and rinsed. The ingredients for Rapid Fixer can be found at Dead Link Removed

The main ingredients for the Rapid Fixer are: ammonium thiosulfate, sodium acetate, boric acid, sodium bisulfite, aluminum sulfate and sulfuric acid. The ph of this material must be low. The sulfuric acid probably has enough potential to oxidize the colloidal silver particles, especially since these are so small. I'm guessing that these will be oxidized first and then fixed out by the thiosulfate. The instructions do warn that this Rapid Fixer can reduce the metallic silver forming the image.

I'm guessing also that the citric acid provide citrate ions causing the yellow silver to form silver citrate. Perhaps this salt is less soluble than the acetate salts and will isolate the silver atoms and drive the reaction to dissolve out the colloidal silver. Would these citrate salts be less soluble?

 

[StoneNYC]

Thanks to PE and his tip concerning how to bleach out the yellow filter layer in Kodachrome. Of course this layer is bleached and fixed out when Kodachrome is developed into color images, and presumably when Kodachrome is developed as a Black and White reversal. But the yellow layer remains when Kodachrome is developed as a Black and White negative.

Kodak published a document TECHNICAL DATA/COLOR FILMS in April 1999 which gave instructions on removing the yellow layer. It is called "Printing Color Films Developed as Black-and-White" and can be found on the internet at

www.[B]kodak.com/global/en/consumer/products/pdf/ae31.pdf

[/B]This yellow layer is composed of colloidal silver; that is silver grains so small that they can go into colloidal suspension. At this small size they interact more directly with light rays, apparently absorbing blue light more efficiently and thus appear yellow.

The instructions that Kodak gives are simply to mix 1 oz, 28 grams, of anhydrous citric acid into one gallon of Kodak Rapid Fixer which has been mixed to the proper concentration to fix films. The Kodachrome photos are fixed in this for 7-14 minutes at 75-80 degrees f, after having been soaked in Photo-flow and rinsed. The ingredients for Rapid Fixer can be found at Dead Link Removed

The main ingredients for the Rapid Fixer are: ammonium thiosulfate, sodium acetate, boric acid, sodium bisulfite, aluminum sulfate and sulfuric acid. The ph of this material must be low. The sulfuric acid probably has enough potential to oxidize the colloidal silver particles, especially since these are so small. I'm guessing that these will be oxidized first and then fixed out by the thiosulfate. The instructions do warn that this Rapid Fixer can reduce the metallic silver forming the image.

I'm guessing also that the citric acid provide citrate ions causing the yellow silver to form silver citrate. Perhaps this salt is less soluble than the acetate salts and will isolate the silver atoms and drive the reaction to dissolve out the colloidal silver. Would these citrate salts be less soluble?

At......?


~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[falotico]

At www.[B]kodak.com/global/en/consumer/products/pdf/ae31.pdf

[/B]I don't know why the internet address did not print out correctly in the above post. Sorry.

 

[StoneNYC]

At www.[B]kodak.com/global/en/consumer/products/pdf/ae31.pdf

[/B]I don't know why the internet address did not print out correctly in the above post. Sorry.

Is it just me or are you posting blank posts?

~Stone

Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1, 5DmkII / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[falotico]

www.kodak.com/global/en/consumer/products/pdf/ae31.pdf

My apologies again. I definitely am NOT posting blank posts, but I seem to have stumbled into a computer syntax error with this web address. If you can read it then copy it and paste it into the address line at google. Then click on the item "Printing Color Films as Black and White". This should bring up the Kodak document. The web address reads out in longhand as: www dot kodak dot com backslash global backslash en backslash consumer backslash products backslash pdf ae31 dot pdf

Otherwise, try a google search for the title of the Kodak document, "Printing Color Films Developed as Black-and-White". Hope it works!