Kodachrome as B&W Neg

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by ssloansjca, Jan 20, 2009.

  1. Karl K

    Karl K Subscriber

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    I assume you meant "red", not "read".
    The negs are dry and they are not red; they have an orange base, similar in appearance to an old C-22 negative.
    I agitated the negs in the strong Photo-Flo solution quite vigorously, so perhaps that eliminated the RemJet.
    I'm not sure, but the negs seem easily printable.
     
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  2. OptiKen

    OptiKen Subscriber

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    Well you've inspired me to load another roll of K64 in my camera to see what I get in B&W
     
  3. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Member

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    Hmm yes I meant Red, I wonder what I did wrong then, mine turned red, perhaps I didn't fix long enough, but water seems to make the red disappear and when they dry the red comes back, I can wet them even a year later and the red disappears.

    PE at one point said there is a second FIX that he suggested would fix the problem, but I was to add something to a normal fix, but I forget the chemical that he said I should add and I can't remember now :sad:
     
  4. Karl K

    Karl K Subscriber

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    How long did you fix? I fixed for 20 minutes, which is 4x the normal time of 5 minutes.
    Maybe that's the difference.
    Also, I want to emphasize that the resultant negative base is deep orange, similar to the old C-22 negatives.
     
  5. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Look it up on the Kodak web site! I've forgotten the details.

    PE
     
  6. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Member

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    Kodak tells you how to fix out K-14 using B&W process? I SUPPOSE its the same as fixing the normal Kodachrome? Ok thanks.
     
  7. gzhuang

    gzhuang Inactive

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    Anyone tried reconstructing B&W Kodachrome as colour images on the computer? Have a few rolls of this film now for B&W experimentation.

    Dead Link Removed
     
  8. Nige

    Nige Member

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    Recently was given a 177x Kodak Instamatic with a roll of K64 still in it. It was showing exp 20 in the window but when I advanced the lever it 'cocked' so I decided the last frame had yet to be exposed (probably why it had never been developed). I pointed it out the window and clicked the shutter then wound the film on to completion. Went and scoured the web for some suggestions on developing with XTOL but only found one reference of 7mins but it didn't say what dilution so after analysing other suggestions I decided 7mins was a bit short and chose 9mins.

    Based on what I'd read here I did pre-washes until there was no de-colouration of the rinse water (was tinted yellow) then developed using Xtol stock for 9min at 20C. I then did multiple rinses until the water was clear as it had a black tint to start with. Next I fixed using fresh Ilford Hypam for 5mins, then more rinsing (more black). After a few more rinses I opened the tank to examine what I had. Very dense negs but I could see images. Decided to fix for a bit longer.

    I decided that maybe even though the rinse water had stopped having any discolouring, the remjet may not have cleared. I ran around the house looking for something with borax listed as an ingredient but the only thing that was a maybe was dishwashing machine powder. Didn't have the ingredients listed but I found them online and it did have 20-30% Borax in it along with a host of other things. Was worried about what else was in it so tried another suggestion of baking soda. Soaked the film in that for several minutes but nothing happened. I chopped of a small bit of the leader and physically scrubbed it but nothing came off so tried the dishwasher powder with the same result. Decided just to wash the film for about 20 minutes, then hang up to dry.

    Scanned a few to 'have a look' and the scanner (Epson V700) did a decent job considering their density.

    This is the frame I took.

    KC_014_Small.jpg

    One that sort of looked ok

    KC_004_Small.jpg

    So, I headed into my darkroom to see if I could produce a contact sheet. My normal proof sheet for my '35mm setup' (LPL C7700 with colour head and 50mm lens) yields exposures about 10secs @ f5.6. The dense negs were going to take a lot more light and they looked 'low contrast' so I cranked up the magenta filtration to 170, stopped the lens down to f5.6 and gave it bursts of 10secs (simple linear test print). Came out basically white... Next one I opened up the lens to f2.8 and went to 30sec steps. Got something this time and surprising decided 170M was too much so turned that down to 130M and selected 90secs. Did all neg strips this time and got the following.

    Contact.jpg

    I then made a print of the buffalo neg (on 8x10 paper although it's a slightly bigger enlargement as I left the enlarger head where it was) using the 90secs @ f2.8, 130M and got this...

    KC_Print_Small.jpg

    I haven't managed to send any of the scans to the person (my mother-in-law) who gave me the camera yet to try and date the pictures but my wife believes it won't be hers because she hasn't been on a bus trip to Darwin (where the buffalo was located... I found a postcard of it in ebay which said it was made in 1979).

    Neg 6 looks a lot like a termite mound we visited in 2007

    KC_006_Small.jpg termitemounds.jpg
     
  9. gzhuang

    gzhuang Inactive

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    Thanks for the heads up regarding the development. Seems like the pre-rinse helps with regard to the removal of the remject layer. I'll try it myself and apply a stopbath step as the citric acid may help in the thorough removal of the remject.
     
  10. PhotoBob

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    Thanks guys, just put a roll ok K64 into my camera, so this info is very helpful. Was also thinking however if sending it off to intern'l film rescue in Indian Head Saskatchewan.
     
  11. gzhuang

    gzhuang Inactive

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    Folks, some additional information on Kodachrome B&W processing. Seems like the preferred developer maybe D76 or ID11.

    [h=2]Processing Details and B&W Development[/h]

    One of the best instructions found comes from the comments of a response to a question regarding Kodachrome B&W processing in the forums at Photo.net. Alan Marcus, who worked at Dynacolor (a knock-off of Kodachrome) many years ago, had this to say about B&W development:Kodachrome color film is made using three separate black & white emulsions sandwiched onto a single support. Each layer responds to specific frequencies of the spectrum (red - green -blue). During the developing process, a black & white negative image is formed by developing the film in an energetic black & white developer. The developer used is a rather ordinary in that it combines two developing agents. This combination is known in the trade as superadditive. The two agents are metol combined with hydroquinone. In an earlier time, hydroquinone was called quinol, thus the nicknname MQ. Kodak D-76 is an excellent example and it will work well for this purpose.In the actual color developing process, after the black & white negative image appears, Kodachrome film is treated using two reversal exposures and one chemical reversal, each followed by a dye bath. The film is then bleached and fixedto remove unexposed silver and silver images. Dyes are induced during the process. This type of film type is called in the trade, non-incorporated. Whereas Ektachrome E-6 and Kodacolor C-41 have a simpler process because these films have dyes incorporated in then during manufacture.Now Kodachrome wears an undercoating consisting of a heavy layer of carbon black. This layer protects the film from exposure when loaded into a motion picture camera, while on a reel. It protects against exposure from the rear in reflex movie camera and prevents halation's. Now this anti-halation coat is an acid plastic that is soluble in an alkaline bath. The backing called rem-jet and its difficult to remove. In the Kodachrome process the film is pre-soaked in an alkaline bath. This temporally hardens the film allowing it to withstand the rigorous of machine processing and also softens the rem-jet which is removed by buffing with soft spinning cloth rollers.You can processes Kodachome as a black & white using most any common developer. After processing the rem-jet backing can be removed by buffing the back of the film with a soft well washed T-shirt. Removal can be difficult thus the following solution softens.To make 1 liter:
    Water 800ml (warm)
    Borax 20g
    Sodium Sulfate 100g
    Sodium Hydroxide 1g

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    http://gearpatrol.com/2015/03/18/photo-essay-remembering-kodachrome/
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2015
  12. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    The actual formulas for all solutions are contained in the Kodak patent by Bent and Mowrey. There is no need to guess.

    PE
     
  13. nathantw

    nathantw Member

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    I just attempted to develop some Kodachrome II film I received. I didn't see this sticky message on Apug until just now. It would have saved me a lot of time and effort. I decided to write about my experience along with pictures (I'm going to make a video of the process too). It can be found here: https://waybackman.wordpress.com/2015/06/04/developing-40-year-old-kodachrome/
     
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  15. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    A compendium of questions

    I've recently received a gift of 26 rolls of Kodachrome 25 ("KM") - much of it the "processing included" variety :blink:.

    It expired in the mid 1980s, and has been freezer stored.

    I've read through this thread, and a whole bunch of other APUG threads, and I've got a lot of information floating around my head.

    So here are some questions:

    1) is the remjet the same as the remjet on more modern ECN motion picture films, and can I expect the removal techniques used by the ECN people to work similarly on the KM;
    2) has anyone processed both the Kodachrome 64 ("KR") and KM versions of Kodachrome as black and white, and can they tell me if they have noted any important differences in the technique necessary?
    3) is it fair to presume that developing time information for the KM is the same as for KR?
    4) I'm going to try to establish my own EI for the film and HC-110 dilution E, but has anyone any experience with speed loss over 30 years for frozen KM?
    5) I've read a fair bit on the reddish "mask" that results when processing Kodachrome as black and white. What experiences have people had with printing from those red negatives, in particular with variable contrast paper?; and
    6) does anyone have any information oln the reciprocity characteristics of KM?

    That should do for now.

    In case you are wondering, I'm thinking of doing some long exposure work with this film.
     
  16. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    I can answer a bit of this.

    The rem jet is the same!

    Processing is probably different due to the vastly different emulsions and hardening used.

    PE
     
  17. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    Thanks PE.

    That is interesting about the processing, given that the two films would have received the same K-14 processing.
     
  18. Photo Engineer

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    Film from the '80s may not have used the K-14 process. Check the box for information (if any). Earlier films were processed at 75F and later films had a pre-hardener and were processed at 85F.

    PE
     
  19. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    PE:

    It is the K-14 Kodachrome 25, not the K-12 Kodachrome II.
     
  20. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Ok then. I lost track of designations long ago.

    Sorry.

    Thinking about it, your query about Rem Jet threw me off. Rem Jet = Rem Jet in all varieties with very tiny variations, but within the K-14 or K-12 processes should have been identical.

    PE
     
  21. trendland

    trendland Member

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    :pinch:....u n b e l i v a b l e ....???

    with regards :smile:
     
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