I've got the blues - Cyanotype pain

[jda]

It could be? If I'm looking at the correct paper it appears to be a lot more expensive, more difficult to source, and doesn't come in smaller sizes. For those reasons I haven't tried it. I'm also hesitant to try different papers for cyanotype right now give all my difficultly with getting the sensitizer to absorb evenly.

Eventually I'll try some other cotton papers to see if I can find one that works as well. I do agree cotton is a much nicer material than cellulose, especially when holding it or

Superior in what way?

Canson XL watercolor is an inexpensive paper that works well with traditional cyanotype, an inexpensive alt process. It is a great place to start.

There are many papers that work with cyanotype especially if you are willing to treat the paper with acid to remove the carbonate buffer present in many papers. Maybe it is a bit counter intuitive, but many inexpensive papers work well for cyanotype right out of the package probably because they do not have any (or only small amounts) of carbonate buffer in them. Carbonate is added to 'fancy' papers so that they meet one of the standards for archival-ness which less expensive papers may ignore.

A good resource for alt process papers is "The Massive Paper Chart" (see: https://www.alternativephotography.com/massive-paper-chart/). If you do a lot of alt process work the paid version is well worth the money but there is also a free version with just the basics (scroll down on the cited page).

Lastly, with regard to carbonate buffers and pre-treatment of papers with acid, I find that if I 'develop' my cyanotypes with a first wash of 15% vinegar instead of plain water, I can use papers that would otherwise require acid pre-treatment straight from the package.

Thanks for your reply,
I have a history of using 100% rag papers with pt/pd, so I'm cautious of cellulose paper. That's why I questioned the Canson Edition paper against the Canson XL watercolor which is cellulose. I'm ordering some Canson XL to try it.
I have the "Massive Paper Chart". Maybe I missed some information there.. It's hard to know how much calcium carbonate is in each paper with regards with how to treat it.
Also, doesn't that 15% vinegar wash bleach your fine highlight detail?

 

[cirwin2010]

Thanks for your reply,
I have a history of using 100% rag papers with pt/pd, so I'm cautious of cellulose paper. That's why I questioned the Canson Edition paper against the Canson XL watercolor which is cellulose. I'm ordering some Canson XL to try it.
I have the "Massive Paper Chart". Maybe I missed some information there.. It's hard to know how much calcium carbonate is in each paper with regards with how to treat it.
Also, doesn't that 15% vinegar wash bleach your fine highlight detail?

I can't speak to fgorgas vinegar wash, but I acidify the paper in 10% sulfamic acid until it stops fizzing (about 25-30 min) then give it a thorough wash.

The surface layer stops bubbling really quick in the sulfamic acid, but it takes much longer to neutralize the center of the paper fibers. Small jets of bubbles will appear at the paper edges after a while.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

with regard to carbonate buffers and pre-treatment of papers with acid, I find that if I 'develop' my cyanotypes with a first wash of 15% vinegar instead of plain water, I can use papers that would otherwise require acid pre-treatment straight from the package.

I believe this is in the context of Classic Cyanotype and the same vinegar developer wouldn't work for New Cyanotype without pre-treatment of the buffered paper.

Superior in what way?

From an archival point of view perhaps. Apparently, acid-treatment of non-rag papers introduces pulp acids or so I gathered in a Altphotolist thread.

 

[Alan Townsend]

Thanks for your reply,
I have a history of using 100% rag papers with pt/pd, so I'm cautious of cellulose paper.

This is one of my pet peeves on definitions. Provided your paper "rags" are all cotton, they are also nearly pure cellulose. Here's the Google AI:




AI Overview

Yes, cotton is almost pure cellulose (90–95%), making it the purest natural form of this polymer. It is a renewable, biodegradable carbohydrate comprising long, linear chains of glucose units, which provide strength, durability, and high absorbency to the fiber.

That's why I questioned the Canson Edition paper against the Canson XL watercolor which is cellulose.

Both cellulose, just from difference plant sources with different impurities.

I'm ordering some Canson XL to try it.
I have the "Massive Paper Chart". Maybe I missed some information there.. It's hard to know how much calcium carbonate is in each paper with regards with how to treat it.

Calcium carbonate, which is normally called "chalk" is not soluble in water and is dispersed in paper as little particles of nearly inert material. It reduces water absorbtion and physically strengthens the paper. Chalk will react with strong mineral acids, but is nearly inert to the milder organic acids used in alt processes for the most part. In art papers, it acts as a buffer to absorb acids. Since not water soluble to any degree, it doesn't affect the Ph of the paper unless a strong acid is present. Hence the acid free designation.

Also, doesn't that 15% vinegar wash bleach your fine highlight detail?

No, cyanotypes are bleached by basic solutions, not acidic solutions. The vinegar reduces the contrast of the cyanotype slightly while oxidizing the Prussian blue similar to hydrogen peroxide, so it strengthens the tones.

 

[jda]

That's a very compete

I can't speak to fgorgas vinegar wash, but I acidify the paper in 10% sulfamic acid until it stops fizzing (about 25-30 min) then give it a thorough wash.

The surface layer stops bubbling really quick in the sulfamic acid, but it takes much longer to neutralize the center of the paper fibers. Small jets of bubbles will appear at the paper edges after a while.

Thanks for the info.

 

[jda]

This is one of my pet peeves on definitions. Provided your paper "rags" are all cotton, they are also nearly pure cellulose. Here's the Google AI:




AI Overview



View attachment 419965
Yes, cotton is almost pure cellulose (90–95%), making it the purest natural form of this polymer. It is a renewable, biodegradable carbohydrate comprising long, linear chains of glucose units, which provide strength, durability, and high absorbency to the fiber.


Both cellulose, just from difference plant sources with different impurities.


Calcium carbonate, which is normally called "chalk" is not soluble in water and is dispersed in paper as little particles of nearly inert material. It reduces water absorbtion and physically strengthens the paper. Chalk will react with strong mineral acids, but is nearly inert to the milder organic acids used in alt processes for the most part. In art papers, it acts as a buffer to absorb acids. Since not water soluble to any degree, it doesn't affect the Ph of the paper unless a strong acid is present. Hence the acid free designation.

No, cyanotypes are bleached by basic solutions, not acidic solutions. The vinegar reduces the contrast of the cyanotype slightly while oxidizing the Prussian blue similar to hydrogen peroxide, so it strengthens the tones.

Thank you for the detailed response Alan.

I had not previously considered that they are both cellulose, but your explanation makes sense.

I am always open to new information, even when it challenges my current perception.

 

[koraks]

Since not water soluble to any degree, it doesn't affect the Ph of the paper unless a strong acid is present.

This is not strictly true; calcium carbonate has very low solubility in water - and that's pertinent in this case as it does in fact result in a little bleaching of a cyanotype printed on calcium-carbonate buffered paper. This can be observed by making the same print on the buffered paper and paper where the buffer was removed; the print on the buffered paper will have a slightly different hue (tending a bit towards magenta) and moreover, the most delicate highlights will be bleached back a little.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

is nearly inert to the milder organic acids used in alt processes for the most part.

If this were true then buffer neutralisation with Citric Acid wouldn't have worked. But it does work.