Incandescent/halogen ban?

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Sirius Glass

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"Blackbody" light sources like tungsten filament have a continuous spectrum, but differ in specific color temperature. But fluorescents, CFL's, and LED's all produce a discontinuous spectrum with spikes and imbalances; and therefore the best color renditions of those are actually quite expensive. CRI was a traditonal manner of expressing the statistically probability of how many of a hundred representative color patches would be properly rendered relative to human vision, according to any given lightsource. This was generally in context of opposing metamerism, where certain colors act chameleon-like under different sources. Anyone who aspires to balance a colorhead to a particular batch of color paper using a standard color reference should be acutely aware of this general principle.

But serious lighting engineers, along with pigment and dye experts, nowadays think more in terms of CIE color mapping and gamut properties, hoping to close at least a few of the loopholes. But nothing will ever be perfect. In fact, inkjet colorants are a bit of a step backwards in terms of gamut. No color film or RA4 paper is perfect either; every one of has idiosyncrasies which need to be recognized. I look at my own dry color prints not only with my expensive German color matching (5000K, CRI 98) tubes, but using several other sources too - diffuse daylight outdoors, high-end LED spotlights, commercial fluorescent 5000K, warm tungsten, oddball CFL too if necessary. No different than what I did when our company paint color matchers came to me for a final assessment. Only half of it is physiological sight. The other half is psychological, with training and experience knowing
what to look for, and how to compare, and in what light, according to the real-world conditions involved.

I have studies and used IR for a number of electro-optical devices. I understand black body radiation and I can quickly predict what something will look like from the phenomenological point of view. I cannot do the same for fluorescents, CFL's, and LED's which are not predictable by the available light models which I used during my career.
 

redbandit

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Ive always put off getting studio lights, godox boxes, etc.. Never understood why until i just started pricing light bulbs..

Nothing like spending 2-300 on a single SINGLE studio light on stand, that needs a 120$ bulb..
 

DREW WILEY

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I kept my Arri fresnel and Lowell hotlights just in case. Bulbs did pop from time to time, and the work environment was indeed hot. But I no longer aspire to do any studio style work. So when I came to rethinking my copy stand - necessary for digitally cataloging my print collection for estate purposes - I figured mid-grade variable-color-temp LED "rim-light" panels would do just fine. No way I can afford Hollywood quality equivalents at a couple thousand dollars apiece. Web-quality JPEG's will do just fine, since I don't sell prints over the web, but do want the heirs hoping to sell my work to be able to access the contents of the collection quickly without digging through it all.

One of the chronic problems with "full spectrum" LEDs (pronounced with a grain of salt) is with the blue diodes, which typically need violet filters atop them to harness spectrally. That ups the cost of better panels. Then there's the matter of balancing the full usable spectral range to the actual light output. Cheap camera store panels don't do that. Just like lightboxes, they simply rate the product according to the internal lights, without factoring any internal housing reflectance changes to that, or the shift in color temp due to the overlying plastic diffuser panel itself. Nor are individual lights of the same model precisely quality controlled and matched to one another. That spells the difference between a professional lightbox costing hundreds, and a shoot-from-the-hip camera or art store one. Likewise with lighting panels. You get what you pay for (or don't get what you can't afford).

Hot lights made it easy for the little guy to afford color accurate lighting, with tungsten balanced films accompanying it, or at least color conversion standard filters. Even a student could afford Smith Victor lights and six buck apiece GE Photoflood bulbs, and get the job done. Now we've arrived on an alien planet, where everyone looks like a Martian if typical e-lighting is involved. Not quite as ghoulish as back in ole Cool White fluorescent tube days, but annoying enough.
 
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redbandit

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Now you know why Natural Light photography is so popular....

I was looking at a set up for my hopefully to start soon macro work.. the best option kit wise were 50-80$ on amazon.. 2 lights on their own stands.. Seemed good enough, until I saw that each bulb would have cost 1-200..
 
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Cinema

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Might just start putting some CTO in front of or around the shitty leds in the house. Might not make it a better quality light but it will be less obviously blue and ugly.
 
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Donald Qualls

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Zone VI cold lights themselves operate differently, using two different overlapping grids, one blue, one green, rather than the combined blue-green light of the more powerful Aristo. Either way, one can selectively use blue versus green glass filters under the lens for split printing or related purposes.

Well, that's interesting. My Zone VI has a single, serpentine tube (above a diffuser sheet), looks like a conventional fluorescent, though it starts and stops instantly, unlike most fluorescent room lighting. And the light produced is what I'd class as "cool white" if I saw it in a ceiling fixture. The lamphouse also incorporates a heater to keep the tube warm after the initial warm-up, so light output doesn't vary from one exposure to the next depending how long the lamp was off.

Different Zone VI lights, I presume -- this one is a perfect fit in the condenser drawer (replacing the condenser glass) of an Omega D2 (though I probably won't use it again, now that I have both a color head and a variable condenser lamp house).
 

ic-racer

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Yes, that is likely a cold cathode. It does not have a 'starter' and uses a much higher voltage than a conventional fluorescent lamp. The 'cold' cathode is not heated (like the orange glow of a vacuum tube cathode heater) but the lamp still can get pretty hot!
 

DREW WILEY

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Looks like you have an older grid, Donald, prior to the VC version, and likely just something rebranded for ZVI. Colorheads are a lot easier to use anyway.
 

Donald Qualls

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What I have has worked for contrast control (split printing, as I noted, with yellow and blue filters), but I'm not looking forward to doing split filter on a color head. "Expose sixteen seconds on C00 Y90 M0, then twenty seconds on C0 Y0 M60 while dodging the base of the trunk for ten seconds and the rightmost rock another five" is a lot less simple when I have to move those dials 150 clicks between each exposure. I might find I do most of my printing with the condenser head or the cold light and save the color head for color...
 

MattKing

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What I have has worked for contrast control (split printing, as I noted, with yellow and blue filters), but I'm not looking forward to doing split filter on a color head. "Expose sixteen seconds on C0 Y90, then twenty seconds on C60 Y0 while dodging the base of the trunk for ten seconds and the rightmost rock another five" is a lot less simple when I have to move those dials 150 clicks between each exposure. I might find I do most of my printing with the condenser head or the cold light and save the color head for color...

When I do split filter contrast printing, I usually use the maximum and minimum positions on the dials for the exposures that follow after the main exposure. It is easier to turn a dial to the end of its travel than it is to adjust it to an intermediate setting.
 

ic-racer

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I was getting odd results with my 14" Aristo head when doing split grade printing. Turns out it was from interchanging blue first with green first. Turns out the lamp gets dimmer as it heats up during the exposure. So which ever exposure is second (green or blue), needed to stay second.

IntensityTemp.png
 

Nicholas Lindan

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Aristo head ... the lamp gets dimmer as it heats up during the exposure.
That's really rather strange. A 1/2 stop drop in light is rather significant, equal to around 1 zone. Flourescent tubes usually get brighter as they warm. The Aristo I had - albeit dating from the 60's-'70s - had a heater to keep the lamp warmed up (kinda) between exposures. Does your Aristo have a second power lead for the heater?

To measure the lamp temperature you need to have the thermocouple or RTD bonded to the glass of the tube. I'm sure the temperature of the tube is swinging more than 4C. 1/2 stop over 4C, why you have yourself a thermometer, with a DA meter you can tell your darkroom temperature to 0.1C.
 

DREW WILEY

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I get you, Donald. And my Durst 8X10 colorhead dials need a stepladder to reach. But my smaller 5X7 Durst chassis holds a customized colorhead with pushbutton RGB controls lower down, so makes life easy. I can also use, if I wish, a flip-away filter holder below the lens. Split printing with my Aristo blue-green coldlight is also easy via filters below the lens. As far as light output goes, the light integrator receptor inside the head imakes things highly predictable and repeatable. If necessary, I can use the heater above the lamp to get it warmed up on an especially cold day. But I prefer just to turn on the little fluid radiant room heater in advance and get the job done by ambient air temperature - less risk of condensation of the carrier glass, or the lens.
 

L Gebhardt

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If you have a group of people openly discussing something, eventually something characterized as "political" will arise.



There's a story that the light bulb manufacturers colluded to make the lifespan of the bulbs shorter. You've heard that, right?
Well, the LEDs in the new bulbs will work for 50000 hours or some such ridiculous number, but the second-rate electronic components that power them won't last more than 5000. They'll soon find replacements that won't last 3000 hours.

I have some Philips LED bulbs that have been in use for 11 years (the L Prize) bulbs. They are still going strong and appear as bright as when I installed them. The ones in my office get probably 2500 hours a year, so I estimate those are close to 30K hours at this point. None of the others in the house have failed. We also have some cheaper ones as well, which are still fine, but never had as good of color. I’ve move most of those to closets and the dark corners of the basement.
 

ic-racer

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That's really rather strange. A 1/2 stop drop in light is rather significant, equal to around 1 zone. Flourescent tubes usually get brighter as they warm. The Aristo I had - albeit dating from the 60's-'70s - had a heater to keep the lamp warmed up (kinda) between exposures. Does your Aristo have a second power lead for the heater?

To measure the lamp temperature you need to have the thermocouple or RTD bonded to the glass of the tube. I'm sure the temperature of the tube is swinging more than 4C. 1/2 stop over 4C, why you have yourself a thermometer, with a DA meter you can tell your darkroom temperature to 0.1C.

The graph represents the temperature of the housing. The heater thermostat is set around 40C, but the lamp heats the housing more than that when it is on. Test limited to 5 min, the maximum on-time recommended by Aristo. It takes about ten minutes to recover to the temperature set point when the lamp extinguishes.

TempRecovery.jpg
 

Kilgallb

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Well, the LEDs in the new bulbs will work for 50000 hours or some such ridiculous number, but the second-rate electronic components that power them won't last more than 5000.

When a manufacture quotes 50,000 hours that does not mean any given LED will last 50,000 hours. It means in a population of lamps every 50,000 hours a failure occurs. So if you have 10 LED lamps in your house expect one failure every 5000 hours. (50,000/10).
 

Hilo

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Can someone enlighten me about the terminology of the bulbs?

Was there first the incandescent bulb for the enlargers? For the enlargers made in the fifties and sixties?

I began printing in the late seventies and I still use the same bulbs for the basic condenser light heads of that period. Focomats Ic and IIc, Valoy II and Durst L1000. English is not my native language, are these bulbs what you call incandescent?

There are differences in the sizes of the bulbs but they all share the E27 fittings. Over the years I have stocked up on these bulbs, generally second hand.

The ones that were hardest to find were the very large bulbs for the Durst. I have these mostly from Atlas, Thorn and Durst, in 200 or 300 watt.
Second hardest to find were the 'short neck' bulbs for the Valoy II (10,4 cm long or a little smaller). These were mostly made by Osram. 75, 150 and 250 watt. Dr. Fisher makes these, but I prefer the original ones as their white opal is very strong and regular.
Finally, there is the 'standard' 11,5cm bulb in 75, 150 and 250 watt. I believe these are still for sale.

Sorry to be so long, in particular because I have accumulated plenty of these bulbs. The reason for asking is for the younger generations. If we'd run out of these bulbs, then what?
 
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redbandit

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Can someone enlighten me about the terminology of the bulbs?

Was there first the incandescent bulb for the enlargers? For the enlargers made in the fifties and sixties?

I began printing in the late seventies and I still use the same bulbs for the basic condenser light heads of that period. Focomats Ic and IIc, Valoy II and Durst L1000.

There are differences in the sizes of the bulbs but they all share the E27 fittings. Over the years I have stocked up on these bulbs, generally second hand.

The ones that were hardest to find were the very large bulbs for the Durst. I have these mostly from Atlas and Durst, in 200 or 300 watt.
Second hardest to find were the 'short neck' bulbs for the Valoy II (10,4 cm long or a little smaller). These were mostly made by Osram. 75, 150 and 250 watt. Dr. Fisher makes these, but I prefer the old ones as the white opal is thicker.
Finally the 'standard' 11,5cm bulb in 75, 150 and 250 watt. I believe these are still for sale.

Sorry to be so long, in particular because I have accumulated plenty of these bulbs. The reason for asking is for the younger generations. If we'd run out of bulbs, then what?

That is the problem. I have started stocking up on them myself. Its only smart. if one place charges half of the others, who am i to be stupid and wiat till the future to have the price go up.

Its ike everything. I have switched to bulk rolling, outlay sucke,d but the per unit cost only goes down. Sure i need to get a few extra rolls to freeze, but thats life.

Colour film is essentially dead. The risks of mailing it, the risks of bad development. teh cost of the film, the cost of developing it..
 

Don_ih

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When a manufacture quotes 50,000 hours that does not mean any given LED will last 50,000 hours. It means in a population of lamps every 50,000 hours a failure occurs. So if you have 10 LED lamps in your house expect one failure every 5000 hours. (50,000/10).

I wasn't talking about the bulbs themselves. The individual light emitting diodes can last an incredibly long time. The limitation the bulbs themselves have comes from the other components - particularly the capacitors -, which have a much shorter practical life.
 

L Gebhardt

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When a manufacture quotes 50,000 hours that does not mean any given LED will last 50,000 hours. It means in a population of lamps every 50,000 hours a failure occurs. So if you have 10 LED lamps in your house expect one failure every 5000 hours. (50,000/10).

Every lamp I’ve looked at specifies that they life is based on when the brightness drops to below 70% of the original brightness. I imagine there are multiple ways a bulb could get to 70% including outright failure of individual diodes, to even fading of all the diodes, to fading of the phosphors used to even out the spectrum. Then there is failure of the drive circuits which would be more like an an incandescent bulb where it goes all at once.

The effect where any one bulb is likely to fail in a time period is exactly the same math for any type of bulb. 10 enlarger bulbs with a 100 hour in use in a photo lab would expect a bulb to burn out every 10 hours.
 

koraks

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The limitation the bulbs themselves have comes from the other components - particularly the capacitors -, which have a much shorter practical life.

Yes, very much so. It's the LED driver electronics that tend to malfunction, not the LEDs. Opening up a selection of LED fixtures (operational as well as deceased) has taught me a number of things, two of which are perhaps worthwhile to note here:
1: Electrolytic capacitors are notorious for having a reduced lifetime, especially in high-temperature environments, such as a typical LED fixture. Modern LED drivers actually often do away with these components - most likely for cost and space savings more than lifetime considerations, btw. (For the same reason, inductors are disappearing.) This does create pronounced 100Hz or 120Hz flicker.
2: It's not just the caps that fail. I've had a number of LED fixtures where the actual driver chips die, several others where contact corrosion played a part, etc.

A lot has been changing on the front of LED electronics, but the driver circuitry remains the common point of failure, combined with cut-corner engineering and sometimes poor manufacturing control.
 

DREW WILEY

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Larry - what you don't take into account is how so many manufacturers have increasingly whored themselves out to low bidder expectations in the past three decades. This is just fact. I was a professional product buyer and saw it first hand, knew all kinds of inside stories, even had CEO's tell me to my face of their intentions. I've seen formerly highly reputable manufacturers go off that cliff one after another. If people want to categorize that as "political" due to the direction the outsourcing went, that is their prerogative. But it's also like sticking their head in the sand as a default. It has to be reckoned with; and often a lot of homework has to be done to find the jewels among the junk heap. And with that trend, there has been a tsunami of BS marketing. The threads immediately above spell out the crux of it pertaining to mass-marketed LED products : corners have been cut in quality control; and the product is only as good as its weakest link.

No, I wasn't personally involved in any of this kind of LED lighting, but did distribute high-end construction and mfg inspection LED lighting, which had either domestic or German solid wiring in every component. Real deal. Pricey too. I knew the people in charge on a first name basis. The bait and switch low bid imports might have looked the same, but failed prematurely, ridiculously quick sometimes; could be unsafe too. I make the same kind of distinction even when buying an ordinary enlarger light bulb; one needs to know where they actually come from, and what the quality control is like.
 
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Larry - what you don't take into account is how so many manufacturers have increasingly whored themselves out to low bidder expectations in the past three decades. This is just fact. I was a professional product buyer and saw it first hand, knew all kinds of inside stories, even had CEO's tell me to my face of their intentions. I've seen formerly highly reputable manufacturers go off that cliff one after another. If people want to categorize that as "political" due to the direction the outsourcing went, that is their prerogative. But it's also like sticking their head in the sand as a default. It has to be reckoned with; and often a lot of homework has to be done to find the jewels among the junk heap. And with that trend, there has been a tsunami of BS marketing. The threads immediately above spell out the crux of it pertaining to mass-marketed LED products : corners have been cut in quality control; and the product is only as good as its weakest link.

No, I wasn't personally involved in any of this kind of LED lighting, but did distribute high-end construction and mfg inspection LED lighting, which had either domestic or German solid wiring in every component. Real deal. Pricey too. I knew the people in charge on a first name basis. The bait and switch low bid imports might have looked the same, but failed prematurely, ridiculously quick sometimes; could be unsafe too. I make the same kind of distinction even when buying an ordinary enlarger light bulb; one needs to know where they actually come from, and what the quality control is like.

People understand that cheap stuff from China for example fails quickly. You have to pay more for quality. I guess I've bought cheaper LEDs from Home Depot as a few have failed on me in a short time. They've exchanged them for me at no cost, so there's that.

Engineers and architects specify more expensive and better quality commercial and institutional grade materials and equipment leaving the cheap stuff for residential. Don't we do the same thing with film and cameras? You rightfully proclaim the better quality of Tmax at higher cost over other inferior emulsions. But not everyone wants to pay the higher costs. It makes the world go around.
 

DREW WILEY

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I'd say camera choice is a more relevant analogy, Alan. There have always been consumer cameras, right down to disposable cardboard ones, versus pro gear expected to last reliably for decades. Now its short-term cellphones versus just about everything else, although an amount of cheap plastic film camera mfg is still going on. Being a tool distributor, I was keenly aware of the distinction. I've known of workmen being fired on the spot for bringing a home center power tool to the jobsite. "how ya gonna get any real work done with that thing?" Often the most expensive option, twenty times more expensive, would pay for itself within two days due to its dramatically better efficiency. The fact a cheap substitute might be warranty replaced for free, over and over again if necessary, means less than zero if the labor rate is tied up running back and forth to Cheapo Depot or whatever getting replacements. The junk version ends up being the most expensive option nearly every time.

And in fact, many junk "warranties" have some very deceptive fine print, not in fact always honored. For example, you buy a tool with a "lifetime replacement warranty", and they change the color of the switch or some other silly thing every few months, and with it, alter the model number too. So you bring in your failed tool, and they tell you that specific model no longer exists, so cannot be warranty replaced. Happens all the time.

Likewise, I don't want to spend a whole lot of time and money and gasoline expense, let alone days of strenuous backpacking, guessing whether or not my camera is going to keep operating properly. Nor do I want enlarger bulbs going brown and popping during printing sessions, especially making big expensive prints. Needing to replace a bulb once a decade on average, for any of my enlargers, is certainly tolerable, and what I'm accustomed to. But the cheap versions of the same bulbs sometimes don't last half an hour. So it's important to recognize such qualitative distinctions, and whom sells which.
 
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