Incandescent/halogen ban?

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Ivo Stunga

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I just feel better with incandescent around. Places where I hang out in have old bulbs on dimer that double as heating indeed. Hate those LED's - in my experience they burn out faster, so all those promises of longevity are out of the window in the real world - cheapest materials used and all that jazz.
 

koraks

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the change from filament to LED has immediate energy savings in the range of 3 - 5 percent.

Only on electrical energy, that is. If you factor in other energy sources, it's less.

The rest of your post I can only qualify as conjecture and selective reasoning. I don't quite agree, even though there are aspects that certainly warrant further research. I'm afraid though that the argument would ultimately end at s rather silly conclusion like "all artificial lighting is bad because we didn't evolve that way".

Anyway, have at it. It's a debate I'm not going to participate in at this point. It's interesting in its own right, but there's too much activist noise to it in the direction adopted here, and that's not a way I'd personally enjoy exploring the topic in.
 

Helge

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Only on electrical energy, that is. If you factor in other energy sources, it's less.

The rest of your post I can only qualify as conjecture and selective reasoning. I don't quite agree, even though there are aspects that certainly warrant further research. I'm afraid though that the argument would ultimately end at s rather silly conclusion like "all artificial lighting is bad because we didn't evolve that way".

Anyway, have at it. It's a debate I'm not going to participate in at this point. It's interesting in its own right, but there's too much activist noise to it in the direction adopted here, and that's not a way I'd personally enjoy exploring the topic in.

We have coevolved with artificial light. We made fire and fire made us. Without fire, we would not have the size of brain we have, and that brain to tell stories and scheme around the fire.
Light is also something to scare foes and thiefs off.

The effect of a spectrum with high deep blue/UV content is well established. The effect of IR is also well known and a growing field of interest.
Deep dips in the spectrum, is less well researched, but not something humanity has ever encountered before to the extent of now.
 

koraks

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Helge, with all due respect (and I mean that), here's why I feel it's not sensible to have this debate:

In your previous post, two notions (CRI and a policy choice) are qualified as nonsensical. This is a very firm position to take; it's a conclusion that effectively can result only from (1) well-established facts that preclude any other view or (2) a very firm belief that exists regardless of any basis in facts.

Since there is no compelling evidence about the influence of LED lighting on human wellbeing, (1) cannot be the case, which leaves (2): a very firm belief. Personally, I don't see much benefit in discussing people's beliefs, especially if they are presented in a way that comes across with me as a non-debatable position. In my native language, we have a football-derived saying that translates into "goin in with an outstretched leg". It's generally not conducive to a very meaningful altercation - especially on a topic that is very complex and requires attention to detail and nuance.

Furthermore, I believe that in terms of an exchange of knowledge, certain rhetoric devices are counterproductive. I'd like to highlight your mention of overall energy savings in your earlier post, as well as the mention of effects that (in your formulation) are supposedly 'well established'.

The former example (the energy savings figure) is fairly reasonable guesstimate that's indeed substantiated with credible evidence. However, it in itself does not support the position/conclusion presented earlier in your post, i.e. the sensibility of a certain policy. For instance, the worldwide final electricity consumption in households is around 6000TWh. If you save let's say 3% of that by adopting LED lighting, that's a 180TWh energy savings. As a basis for policy, that seems to make good sense, although it becomes a different story if the 180TWh advantage is offset by disadvantages (in terms of energy, resource use, human wellbeing etc.) and the net balance turns out to be negative. Since such a comparison is essentially impossible to make, the argument about an ostensibly small energy savings in the end does not amount to anything - it does not allow for a conclusion either way, and as a support for the crass positions put forth in your earlier post, it only ends up working as a rhetoric device that holds minimal merit in terms of true knowledge exchange or generation.

The latter example of certain effects being 'well stablished' function as a similar ruse - by waving in a general direction of fields of research and summarizing the overall outcomes in a handful of words, the suggestion of a foundation to your claims is given, but the consistency of that foundation remains implicit. And, I dare say, upon further investigation, it will turn out to be not as firm as suggested.

In conclusion, I feel that your former post does highlight a relevant issue that an interesting discussion could be conducted on. However, the rhetoric and logical foundations the topic is introduced on in my view make such a discussion very difficult. It would require that a wide range of implicit assumptions, but also personal beliefs/convictions need to be made explicit, and in part isolated from a more factual exchange of views. That in itself might make for an interesting exchange - provided that the parties involved are willing to engage in it on a constructive basis. However, it's also very labor-intensive, and frankly not my idea of having a nice time socializing with like-minded spirits on a forum.

So again, have at it, but know that I personally feel that as a way to put this topic on the public agenda, this start is a very unfortunate one, that I moreover feel will in the end be counterproductive.
 

Don_ih

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Let's put it this way:

If you have a 10000 burnt-out incandescent lightbulbs, you can smash them up, separate out the metal, and make some more incandescent lightbulbs.

What can you do with 10000 burnt-out LED bulbs?

And of course as always they places that would really matter like heavy industry and container freight get off the hook for another couple of decades.

It's out of sight, out of mind.
 

Helge

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Helge, with all due respect (and I mean that), here's why I feel it's not sensible to have this debate:

In your previous post, two notions (CRI and a policy choice) are qualified as nonsensical. This is a very firm position to take; it's a conclusion that effectively can result only from (1) well-established facts that preclude any other view or (2) a very firm belief that exists regardless of any basis in facts.

Since there is no compelling evidence about the influence of LED lighting on human wellbeing, (1) cannot be the case, which leaves (2): a very firm belief. Personally, I don't see much benefit in discussing people's beliefs, especially if they are presented in a way that comes across with me as a non-debatable position. In my native language, we have a football-derived saying that translates into "goin in with an outstretched leg". It's generally not conducive to a very meaningful altercation - especially on a topic that is very complex and requires attention to detail and nuance.

Furthermore, I believe that in terms of an exchange of knowledge, certain rhetoric devices are counterproductive. I'd like to highlight your mention of overall energy savings in your earlier post, as well as the mention of effects that (in your formulation) are supposedly 'well established'.

The former example (the energy savings figure) is fairly reasonable guesstimate that's indeed substantiated with credible evidence. However, it in itself does not support the position/conclusion presented earlier in your post, i.e. the sensibility of a certain policy. For instance, the worldwide final electricity consumption in households is around 6000TWh. If you save let's say 3% of that by adopting LED lighting, that's a 180TWh energy savings. As a basis for policy, that seems to make good sense, although it becomes a different story if the 180TWh advantage is offset by disadvantages (in terms of energy, resource use, human wellbeing etc.) and the net balance turns out to be negative. Since such a comparison is essentially impossible to make, the argument about an ostensibly small energy savings in the end does not amount to anything - it does not allow for a conclusion either way, and as a support for the crass positions put forth in your earlier post, it only ends up working as a rhetoric device that holds minimal merit in terms of true knowledge exchange or generation.

The latter example of certain effects being 'well stablished' function as a similar ruse - by waving in a general direction of fields of research and summarizing the overall outcomes in a handful of words, the suggestion of a foundation to your claims is given, but the consistency of that foundation remains implicit. And, I dare say, upon further investigation, it will turn out to be not as firm as suggested.

In conclusion, I feel that your former post does highlight a relevant issue that an interesting discussion could be conducted on. However, the rhetoric and logical foundations the topic is introduced on in my view make such a discussion very difficult. It would require that a wide range of implicit assumptions, but also personal beliefs/convictions need to be made explicit, and in part isolated from a more factual exchange of views. That in itself might make for an interesting exchange - provided that the parties involved are willing to engage in it on a constructive basis. However, it's also very labor-intensive, and frankly not my idea of having a nice time socializing with like-minded spirits on a forum.

So again, have at it, but know that I personally feel that as a way to put this topic on the public agenda, this start is a very unfortunate one, that I moreover feel will in the end be counterproductive.

Try doing a simple search for “influence of LED lighting on human wellbeing”.

Read on the history and practice of the CRI measuring standard.
Human colour vision is very complex, and it is only recently that we have begun to understand it to any degree.
The flicker of dimmable bulbs and screens is another matter not discussed either. People can very well detect and be subconsciously affected by high frequency flicker. Especially where we move our eyes. And we do that all the time, since the eye is a scanner and not a still camera.

There are people who try to discuss and be ikonoclast about anything and everything these past two decades. On slim or no grounds often.
Fully agree on that.
Life is too short to discuss conjecture grabbed out of thin air on tummy feelings and “opinions”.

On the other hand a forum is not the place to write a dissertation or gather a huge reference sheet.

What I write has very little, to nothing to do with selection bias.
I leave nothing out and I’d really like to read a real counter. I fully acknowledge that LED light has some big advantages in certain fields.
But it’s absolutely a harmful symbolic move to outlaw incandescent bulbs. For a variety of reasons, most important of which is human physiology.
 
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koraks

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What can you do with 10000 burnt-out LED bulbs?

The same, at a considerable expense of energy. The latter is proportional to how fine-grained the separation is done. Quite similar to incandescent bulbs. The problem is that we have not yet set up most of the recycling infrastructure for this. Do you know how long it took before we did that for incandescent bulbs? In fact, have we actually done this? Ah!
 

Don_ih

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The same, at a considerable expense of energy. The latter is proportional to how fine-grained the separation is done. Quite similar to incandescent bulbs. The problem is that we have not yet set up most of the recycling infrastructure for this. Do you know how long it took before we did that for incandescent bulbs? In fact, have we actually done this? Ah!

Recycling has been set up to gather the most easily reused and profitable materials - like copper and aluminum - from the cleanest sources. Anything difficult is mostly shuffled off to landfill, here. And LED bulbs are currently considered non-recoverable - i.e., destined for landfill. Incandescent bulbs, at least, can go in with glass recycling.

There will be no profit recycling LED bulbs. So it will not happen.
 

Helge

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The same, at a considerable expense of energy. The latter is proportional to how fine-grained the separation is done. Quite similar to incandescent bulbs. The problem is that we have not yet set up most of the recycling infrastructure for this. Do you know how long it took before we did that for incandescent bulbs? In fact, have we actually done this? Ah!

Glass will become sand and metal will corrode. No need to really be concerned with incandescents.
 

koraks

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Recycling has been set up to gather the most easily reused and profitable materials - like copper and aluminum - from the cleanest sources.

What percentage of light bulbs, incandescent or any other technology, do you think is actually being recycled? Have you looked into the realities of solid waste management across the globe? It so happens I have, and it's disconcerting if you compare that reality to what we can do in theory/on paper and what we like to believe we're doing at a large scale (which is insignificant in reality to the true scale of the problem). It's out of sight, out of mind indeed!

Glass will become sand and metal will corrode. No need to really that concerned with incandescents.

Ultimately, the materials that make up semiconductors and their encasing will similarly degrade. The timescale will be different, depending on the material.

What I write has very little, to nothing to do with selection bias.

To the contrary - it's all selection and confirmation bias. You'd be the first human being to not suffer from those. And I have no problem with that, in principle. What I do find problematic, is disregarding or even denying this bias in order to present a belief as if it is a firm conclusion. There's no sensible altercation that can happen beyond that point. Too much noise...

Again, with all due respect; I can see your points, even your conviction. It's interesting and worthy of consideration, but as it is, it's not a position that invites me personally to a meaningful conversation.
 
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The issue isn't which light is better for the eyes, or which is cheaper, or how much energy is being saved whether 1% 2% or 3%. The issue is personal freedom to make decisions in our lives rather than allowing government bureaucrats decide for us how we should live our lives.

What if they decide to ban film because of the chemicals? Velvia 100 has just been banned because of some minute chemical that might be harmful. Does anyone disagree that breathing fumes in a darkroom isn't healthy for you? Shouldn't you be allowed to make that decision for yourself?
 

Ivo Stunga

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Well, not to go near the stinky pit of politcs, I fleel that the same goes for drugs (including alcohol; Dry Law anyone that created organized crime as an entity?) - one should be allowed to take risks and engage in risky bodily behaviour, it's their choice not the choice of a nanny in form of a government. If skydiving is legal, so should be many way less harmful things. But no, we as species hit everything with hammer these days - be it nail or a screw, or toddler.
I can understand the savings argument, but with LED's that run out of steam before my incandescent does - who did save what at the end, more diverse landfill material and that's about it.
 

Don_ih

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personal freedom to make decisions

the choice of a nanny in form of a government

People seem to want their decisions made for them. Why? Because they want everyone else's decisions made for them. It's easy to support the ban on drugs or chemicals or anything else you (a) don't do yourself and (b) don't want to have to deal with other people doing.

Most people watch tv and eat. Sitcoms and French fries will never be banned.
 
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Well, not to go near the stinky pit of politcs, I fleel that the same goes for drugs (including alcohol; Dry Law anyone that created organized crime as an entity?) - one should be allowed to take risks and engage in risky bodily behaviour, it's their choice not the choice of a nanny in form of a government. If skydiving is legal, so should be many way less harmful things. But no, we as species hit everything with hammer these days - be it nail or a screw, or toddler.
I can understand the savings argument, but with LED's that run out of steam before my incandescent does - who did save what at the end, more diverse landfill material and that's about it.
I've got a box of Velvia 100 to sell you. :wink:
 

Ivo Stunga

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Hehehehe, what's your markup, where did you source it, did you cut it with something else? : D
 
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Hehehehe, what's your markup, where did you source it, did you cut it with something else? : D

I'll throw in two 100-watt incandescent bulbs to sweeten the deal.
 
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...a very firm belief. Personally, I don't see much benefit in discussing people's beliefs...

Especially since belief is acceptance in the absence of credible evidence.

Lighting accounted for one quarter of the kWh on my residential electric bill each month. Six years ago, after extensive research, and having waited for the technology to evolve to a point where I was satisfied with both its performance and service life, I carefully selected LED replacement lamps for all screw-in and ceiling can-type fixtures. The only things retained were four occasionally used fluorescent tube bulbs located behind diffusers in a soffit. The latter I deemed not worth the trouble, since no acceptable plug-and-play replacements with adequate lumen output or color quality were (nor are they today) available, and remodeling would have been required.

Not a single LED has failed during the last six years. Despite lumen ratings comparable to the incandescent bulbs they replaced, brightness levels were, and continue to be, perceptibly higher with the LEDs. One of my selection criteria was a CRI rating of 90 or higher combined with 2700 or 3000 degrees Kelvin color temperature rating. Side by side with incandescent bulbs, these LEDs exhibit no noticeable difference in color. They don't flicker or cause any negative effects on human comfort. In fact, since adding heat is unwelcome in this climate most of the year, they actually increased human comfort.

The number of kWh I'm billed for lighting has decreased by 87% since converting to LEDs. Given how much electrical rates have increased over the previous six years, even if all of my LEDs failed simultaneously today, I'd still be ahead financially. The only landfill issue created by conversion is all those incandescent bulbs that were discarded six years ago. Our municipal carting system is not set up to recycle them, so they were buried along with other trash.
 

MattKing

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I finally got around to reading today's posts in this thread.
Yes - please no more politics.
 

Ivo Stunga

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Not a single LED has failed during the last six years.
Lucky you. Quality might be market/region dependent. I installed some 12 LED's about 3 years ago, have already replaced 3 of them: transformer and its parts just go out.
Meanwhile my 200W incandescent made in 90's and installed about 2-4 years ago (don't remember exactly) on dimmer still runs strong. Dimmer is the stuff of gods.
Is there quality led of 200W equivalent and dimmable?

EDIT:
It might be region based indeed:
Where 220V is present, LED lights have to do more of that transformation work to power the LED's inside, more work requires better parts, more work means wearing out faster.
Folks on 120V have better experience with LED's I guess.
 
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koraks

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Where 220V is present, LED lights have to do more of that transformation work to power the LED's inside, more work requires better parts, more work means wearing out faster.
Folks on 120V have better experience with LED's I guess.

Nah, that's not really how it works. It doesn't make much of a difference. There might be a tiny difference in failure rates, but it won't be significant.
In a typical LED armature, it's not the case that the electronics somehow have to work 'harder' if the input voltage is higher or something like that.

To translate what happens to layman's terms, think of a LED driver as a bucket with a tap that's used to fill individual cups that are perfectly aligned underneath it. With 120V, the bucket hangs a bit lower over the cups than with 230V input, that's all. The consequence is that the system isn't much more likely to fail - only that if it does fail, it can do so slightly more spectacularly.
 
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Ivo Stunga

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To me it makes sense = more to step down, more heat goes into transformer/resisor = wears out faster and this leads to me having to replace my LED's quite often.
This or I don't know where's the fault: Latvian market being flooded with shitty LED's?
 

koraks

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Ivo, my apologies, I was still editing. But that's not how a LED driver works. They don't dissipate more heat depending on input voltage.

Latvian market being flooded with shitty LED's?

Pretty much all Western markets are flooded with shitty quality LEDs at least some of the time. If you scroll back you can see my anecdote (if memory serves) of a particular batch of LEDs in my home having consistent problems. All the others work - most of them have moved from our previous home to our current one, and have been in in daily operation for years now.
 

Ivo Stunga

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I feel an experiment is in order!
Guys, what LED would you recommend for me to try out? I'd like dimmable and with ridiculous amounts of lumens, neutral/warmish white.
 
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