How to improve density in Cyanotypes?

[Fraunhofer]

Especially when doing DNG, I really would first use a step wedge to fix my process, fumed silica etc. and the fix the curve for the DNG.

 

[ChristopherCoy]

This is from a 8x10 in-camera negative, developed to high contrast for alternative processes

Ah. That's why it's so good. I doubt a printed negative will be as good.

 

[Fraunhofer]

Hm, not sure. I have gotten very nice Pd/Pt prints from DNG, some even taken with just my phone. It really depends on how well your curve is matched to your process. Any by process, I mean chemistry, paper, drying time, fumed silica all of it has to be identical to when you calibrated your curve. For Pd/Pt even humidity should be similar.

 

[ChristopherCoy]

Tried less....and less...and less. Wasn't for me. If you've got a good paper, it's not necessary.

Found this post from 2013... have you tried the roller in the tray method? More information on Fumed Silica and alt processes

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Found this post from 2013... have you tried the roller in the tray method? More information on Fumed Silica and alt processes

Yes. Roller on glass. Roller in a tray. And I did try mixing with water and soaking the paper in a tray. Maybe I'll give it one last try this weekend... it's been a few years. Maybe the curse has been lifted...

 

[ChristopherCoy]

Yes. Roller on glass. Roller in a tray. And I did try mixing with water and soaking the paper in a tray. Maybe I'll give it one last try this weekend... it's been a few years. Maybe the curse has been lifted...

I would do the mixing it with water if I had a print dryer, or a way to dry the print perfectly flat. That would be my preferred method.

The chems for cyanotype are so cheap, I've often thought of coating paper the same way.

 

[ChristopherCoy]

oooh.... I wonder if dry ironing the paper would work.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

oooh.... I wonder if dry ironing the paper would work.

Ironing it would probably work. I use a heavy paper like Hahnemuhle PR. It always dries flat. The nice thing about it is it doesn't need any pretreatment to increase dmax or improve smoothness of tones.

 

[glbeas]

I know you've done VDB's, did you find that the sharpness and resolution was better in a VDB than it was in your CT's?

I havent done any cyanotypes yet. I do know with the Cranes Cover Ive been using it records raster lines in the digital negative.

 

[removedacct1]

Its a combination of the right paper, matched with the right negative (contrasty, dense highlights) and the right exposure.

I get the best results coating a single coat of Ware formula sensitizer on Canson Pro Marker Pad paper, and a fairly contrasty negative.
This is a crappy scan of the print, but at least you'll get an idea of whats possible: https://flic.kr/p/2j8vBaj
The D-max areas are almost blue-black, they are so dense. Most watercolor papers I've used are crap with this process, so find something with a VERY hard (hot press) surface, and use the Ware formula of sensitizer, and I think you'll get better results.

 

[Fraunhofer]

+1 on the Mike Ware sensitizer, much much better than the original Herschel formula

 

[Vaughn]

Here's the relavant portion in Mike Ware's Cyanomicon:
....

Thanks! I plan on taking up CT again and I'll retest my results of using dichromates. The changes I was getting were not subtle. Ware's formula already has dichromate in it, not much, though.

 

[ChristopherCoy]

So what I've gathered is that I need to go back to the Bergger COT-320, give it a quick bath in dichromate, roll it with fumed scilica, and coat it with Ware's formula.

 

[removedacct1]

So what I've gathered is that I need to go back to the Bergger COT-320, give it a quick bath in dichromate, roll it with fumed scilica, and coat it with Ware's formula.

If you want to make it THAT difficult for yourself, then yes. But it isn't the only way to get similar results.

 

[nmp]

Thanks! I plan on taking up CT again and I'll retest my results of using dichromates. The changes I was getting were not subtle. Ware's formula already has dichromate in it, not much, though.

You are welcome. Although the chemistry behind the actions of hydrogen peroxide and dichromates may be similar, it's quite possible that the two differ in some other way in practice. Not having made the comparison myself, I don't want to say they will give the same outcomes - for one thing I have learned doing alternative processing is things are always more complicated than what one perceives. Incidentally, dichromates were the brightening agents of choice in the early 1900's for commercial blueprinting. I guess the stability issues with peroxide made them unsuitable for large-scale use.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

I like the Cyanotype process, but my biggest complaint at this point is the density of the image. It's kind of there, but not really - not quite sure how to explain my thoughts. It's kind of like looking at a newspaper image up close to me.

Would coating, drying, and re-coating improve the "resolution" if you will?

View attachment 248218

The easiest way is put a splash of hydrogen peroxide in your tray of wash water.

 

[ProfessorC1983]

Would fumed silica be used instead of a gelatin or starch sizing? Before? After?

 

[ChristopherCoy]

The easiest way is put a splash of hydrogen peroxide in your tray of wash water.

i already do that. I actually put more like a shot glass full in my tray.

 

[ChristopherCoy]

Would fumed silica be used instead of a gelatin or starch sizing? Before? After?

Starch sizing?

 

[ProfessorC1983]

Starch sizing?

I'm referring to pre-treating the paper with gelatin or something like arrowroot starch. To my understanding the idea is the same as for fumed silica -- encourage more of the emulsion to dry on the paper's surface rather than soaking in. That said, I'm also a complete beginner and have yet to try it, but was on my list of techniques to attempt as I hone the craft. So I'm curious as to whether the fumed silica suggestion would be in lieu of the sizing -- particularly since it seems so much more difficult to apply correctly than brushing on a bit of gelatin or starch!

 

[glbeas]

Can sizing be applied correctly with a rod?

 

[koraks]

+1 on the Mike Ware sensitizer, much much better than the original Herschel formula

Depends on how you look at it.
* New Cyanotype works best with very long-scaled negatives that are similar to those that work well for salted paper prints. Think 2.2 logD and thereabouts. Classic cyanotype likes 1.5 or so.
* New Cyanotype is much more picky in terms of paper and more sensitive to chemical composition of the paper. It's more prone to staining, reduced dmax etc. Classic cyanotype works quite well on a very broad selection of papers; I bet it would even do OK on toilet paper...
* New Cyanotype exposes much faster than classic cyanotype. As I recall the difference is 2-3 stops or so.
I wouldn't say one is superior to the other. They're just different.

 

[ChristopherCoy]

I'm referring to pre-treating the paper with gelatin or something like arrowroot starch. To my understanding the idea is the same as for fumed silica -- encourage more of the emulsion to dry on the paper's surface rather than soaking in. That said, I'm also a complete beginner and have yet to try it, but was on my list of techniques to attempt as I hone the craft. So I'm curious as to whether the fumed silica suggestion would be in lieu of the sizing -- particularly since it seems so much more difficult to apply correctly than brushing on a bit of gelatin or starch!

I hadn't heard of starch before, of course I hadn't heard of fumed silica either. Apparently I'm not looking in the correct places for information, or I dont know what information to look for. I guess today is "google sizing paper techniques" day.

 

[Vaughn]

I suggest just finding a paper that does not need extra sizing or any other pre-treatment and just get the basic process down.

 

[removedacct1]

I suggest just finding a paper that does not need extra sizing or any other pre-treatment and just get the basic process down.

I agree with Vaughn. You're looking for complicated solutions to a simple problem, IMO.