Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania

[AgX]

Yeah, thats OK if your into movie production, but for a few home movies i would make, its not convenient. I dont know how you could synchronise when being projected either. if you were scanning it to digital that would be easier, but defeats the whole purpose of using my projector.
If only magnetic sound film was still available, if ferrania could pull this off, it would be a big deal to the film community.

For 16mm homemovie making seperate sound-recorders based on the compact-cassette were available. They had special features to yield synchronicity between sound and image.

 

[Nzoomed]

For 16mm homemovie making seperate sound-recorders based on the compact-cassette were available. They had special features to yield synchronicity between sound and image.

OK, i guess this equipment would be rather expensive, anyway, if i had the right recorder, it would be great if you could send the audio file with the time code and get the lab to print it as an optical track on the film itself if you shot it on single perf.
But im not aware if this can be done in an E6 lab.

 

[AgX]

No time code back then and equipment is fleamarket stuff today.
For projecting you can go the split way too. A magnetic or optical track is not necessary (depending on projector).

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Wow... all this discussion about 16mm movie film. I never would've guessed it was so popular. I'm only interested in 120 roll, 4x5 and 8x10.

 

[Nzoomed]

Wow... all this discussion about 16mm movie film. I never would've guessed it was so popular. I'm only interested in 120 roll, 4x5 and 8x10.

Well ive just started to get into 16mm, mainly to watch films and features, ive bought an Eiki projector, but thought it would be great to make my own 16mm movies, ive only shot in super8 up till now.
Im hoping Ferrania can make shooting film more accessible, as i would love to shoot more.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Well ive just started to get into 16mm, mainly to watch films and features, ive bought an Eiki projector, but thought it would be great to make my own 16mm movies, ive only shot in super8 up till now.
Im hoping Ferrania can make shooting film more accessible, as i would love to shoot more.

I intended no criticism... none at all. All the interest in 16mm just surprised me.

 

[Nzoomed]

I intended no criticism... none at all. All the interest in 16mm just surprised me.

Thats OK, i didnt take it as such! lol
But yeah i have really started to enjoy playing films, its something that this new generation will not even understand now that most theatres no longer use it. Its something different, and i wouldnt mind doing some film making at some point in the future.

I love it how they heavily promoted kodak ektachrome in the movie "Super 8" and then the next year they dropped the product!

 

[flavio81]

Are you still reading despite our off topicism, Dave?

 

[Xmas]

Local shop pigeon holes 16 mm single perf foma 100R, they only stock on orders or sales.

http://shop.silverprint.co.uk/Fomapan-R-16mm-x-100ft-Cinefilm/product/55745/V11810/

I need to buy some for my 110 spy cam.

 

[MattKrull]

Wow... all this discussion about 16mm movie film. I never would've guessed it was so popular.

+1

I learned non linear video editing nearly two decades ago (who remembers the Video Toaster?). It seemed then that 8mm was long dead and 16mm only used by documentary work where they really cared about quality. Everyone was either digital video or full on 35mm.

 

[Xmas]

Today if you shoot on 16mm you can scan and print on 35mm.

 

[AgX]

But where to show a 35mm copy? That is the new problem.

 

[Nzoomed]

+1

I learned non linear video editing nearly two decades ago (who remembers the Video Toaster?). It seemed then that 8mm was long dead and 16mm only used by documentary work where they really cared about quality. Everyone was either digital video or full on 35mm.

The thing to remember is though is that 16mm actually has better resolution and quality than Blu-ray 1080p!
Especially if you take super 16mm into account.
Its still widely used on TV production, there are a few TV series that are still shot on it.

 

[AgX]

Over here 16mm is long gone at TV-productions.

 

[flavio81]

Ok, let's keep off topic then...

But where to show a 35mm copy? That is the new problem.

Here there are many cinemas which can project 35mm.

Not only that: The white elephant in cinema today is that many film cinemas exist with one of the best projectors ever -- the Philips DP70 (standing ovation, please). And, as it name implies, it can also show 70mm FILM... Many people think nobody can project 70mm anymore yet that projector was a best seller... And i would bet that no digital projector comes close to a correctly projected 70mm movie...

We need more films in 70mm to combat the digital cinema. ARRI has already launched a digital cine camera with a sensor whose size is bigger than the 65mm frame size...

 

[Dr Croubie]

ARRI has already launched a digital cine camera with a sensor whose size is bigger than the 65mm frame size...

Using Hasselblad HC lenses, no less (says FAQ here).

Panavision also have a 65mm digicam. I think the saddest part is the quote from here:
"Eventually film may disappear completely, so having a camera that can match that quality is going to fill a need."

In short, even just the rumours of the death of 65mm cine film were enough to spur on the R&D guys to create 65mm digital sensors. And the irony is that in creating said digital sensors they're only going to hasten the death of 65mm film too (if it weren't already all-but-dead).

That didn't really happen with 35mm and dslrs, in the beginning a lot (esp kodak) were adamant that film would remain as the higher-quality medium forever, until the inevitable happened (although it maybe took 10-15 years for digital quality to be as good as film).
Now the 35mm market has pretty much bottomed out, those of us still shooting film are the ones that are going to keep doing so despite whatever digital advancements are made.

I'd guess that people still shooting 65mm movies are split, some for the better quality and affordability over digital, some for nostalgia and 'the look'.
Once these 65mm digicams take over in a few years and become more affordable, all that's left are the film nuts who like it and would never go digital, like the movie-version of pretty much everyone here at apug.
And that's not going to be enough sales to sustain the Yellow Behemoth, they've still got 65mm on the books but who knows how many more runs they'll do before it's below-cost?
And that's exactly where Ferrania can slot in, as the smaller and more nimble player with a lot less overheads, able to run off a few dozen thousand feet without having to make+sell a few million to break even...

 

[Dave in Kansas]

Another off-topic question. I'm curious, has IMAX gone all digital or is it still film?

 

[georg16nik]

Guys,
in IMAX the 70mm film width is related to the frame height. Think about 6X9 versus 6x4.5 in still cam.
The Arri Alexa 65 (54.12 x 25.59mm) is a kids toy compared to the real film IMAX.
So, its just a number.

 

[Nzoomed]

Over here 16mm is long gone at TV-productions.

Maybe so, but there are a few TV productions that still use it, such as the walking dead:
https://library.creativecow.net/kaufman_debra/Behind-the-Lens-David-Boyd/1

Films such as the hurt locker were also shot on it, which is news to me, i would not have even guessed that.

 

[Prof_Pixel]

Another off-topic question. I'm curious, has IMAX gone all digital or is it still film?

IMAX is developing large format digital projectors. Dead Link Removed

 

[Nzoomed]

Using Hasselblad HC lenses, no less (says FAQ here).

Panavision also have a 65mm digicam. I think the saddest part is the quote from here:
"Eventually film may disappear completely, so having a camera that can match that quality is going to fill a need."

In short, even just the rumours of the death of 65mm cine film were enough to spur on the R&D guys to create 65mm digital sensors. And the irony is that in creating said digital sensors they're only going to hasten the death of 65mm film too (if it weren't already all-but-dead).

That didn't really happen with 35mm and dslrs, in the beginning a lot (esp kodak) were adamant that film would remain as the higher-quality medium forever, until the inevitable happened (although it maybe took 10-15 years for digital quality to be as good as film).
Now the 35mm market has pretty much bottomed out, those of us still shooting film are the ones that are going to keep doing so despite whatever digital advancements are made.

I'd guess that people still shooting 65mm movies are split, some for the better quality and affordability over digital, some for nostalgia and 'the look'.
Once these 65mm digicams take over in a few years and become more affordable, all that's left are the film nuts who like it and would never go digital, like the movie-version of pretty much everyone here at apug.
And that's not going to be enough sales to sustain the Yellow Behemoth, they've still got 65mm on the books but who knows how many more runs they'll do before it's below-cost?
And that's exactly where Ferrania can slot in, as the smaller and more nimble player with a lot less overheads, able to run off a few dozen thousand feet without having to make+sell a few million to break even...

So is it possible that Ferrania may have a future market with 70mm cine film?
They never produced ECN2 type films, so this would require serious R&D in their department.
Would be cool to see IMAX films in the future on ferrania film stock!

 

[flavio81]

Yesss let's keep the Off Topic Party!!

Anybody want to talk about 70mm cinema sound systems? Digital versus analog magnetic track anyone?

 

[Dr Croubie]

So is it possible that Ferrania may have a future market with 70mm cine film?

I'd guess at yes, but the timing must be just perfect.
Come in too soon, and they're competing against the remaining Kodak films.
Come in too late and even the die-hard users have switched to digital, however reluctantly.

Of course, no matter how late it is and no matter how many have switched to digital, there's always those who will switch back if 'the look' is good and the price is right.
I'd say the bigger danger is coming in too early, spending all the R&D money and producing too much film, and selling none of it because Vision3 is still around, that's the kind of situation that could kill the whole endeavour.
But that can be mitigated by a few test-rolls, getting some big& famous film-lovers like Tarantino to try it out, if it's good and they get on board for pre-orders that could justify a decent-sized run.
That's a lot more sales and marketing skills than technical though, we know Ferrania have the engineers but do they have the salesmen with the connections?

 

[flavio81]

We don't know if Ferrania has the equipment to perforate 65mm and 70mm film stock. Although the perforations look similar to the ones used for 35mm.

If i have researched correctly, the increased costs of 70mm prints were not exactly due to the increased amount of photo film area, but due to the fact that for 70mm there was no (cheaper) optical audio option, but only the magnetic audio. So the 70mm print stock needed additional manufacturing work so it would be coated with magnetic stripes, just as it is done when manufacturing audio tape. I've read on forums that this increased tenfold (10x) the cost of the print (source unknown -- please contribute), which limited 70mm prints manufacturing and distribution.

In the 1990s, DTS created digital audio (optical) sync tracks for the 70mm prints, so magnetic tracks were not needed anymore and thus print costs could decrease. There was a small resurgence of 70mm prints in the early 90s.

ARRI and Panavision both have modern (late 80s) 65mm cameras which they still rent, plus an array of lenses. The latest lenses released for the Arri digital 65mm camera use the same mount as the Arri 765 65mm film camera; that's good news.

"See new coming attractions presented in 70mm FERRRANIACOLOR..."

Black and white high-acutance 70mm prints should be something wonderful to watch...

 

[LJH]

...we have some ideas floating around about how to manage pre-sold small-batch production runs. "Small-batch" is a relative term. Small for us might not be small enough for some formats, and I'm sure the number will vary by format.

These are just ideas, at this point, and are dependent on quite a number of other things falling into place first.

An annual run, like Ilford's, but 6 months later each year?

I'd certainly get some ULF sheets if they were available.

One benefit of so many Labs closing down is the renewed focus on home developing of E6/C41. I believe that this would carry over in to ULF E6 home dev. I know that I can easily do 7x17 colour; just need film to do it! What I'd give to see a sheet of 7x17" 'chrome on a light table. Make a mockery of my 6x17cm stuff...