Hello APUG from FILM Ferrania

[Ken Nadvornick]

Wouldn't you be worried about it straying off target?:munch:

Guilty as charged. I just couldn't help myself. I almost named it SeanChrome, but it just didn't seem right to drag the innocent down that path with me.



Ken

 

[BAC1967]

The other model that I have seen used, perhaps because of Political considerations at a certain large company in Rochester NY was for a small dealer to do final converting on a product before providing it to the end users.

The Example I an thinking of is John Schwind ( http://internationalfilm.weebly.com/ ). He was able to get a Large order of various film stocks perforated as Regular 8 (2R1500) but only on 400ft cores. He arranged to get spools and Cans (apparently originally made by the Russian CIBMA factory) and re spooled the regular 8 stock for end users. He still apparently still has some 7285 which he had to call "Cinechrome 100D" as Kodak would not allow him to use the Kodak name on repacked film.

He also stocks Tri-X reversal in double perf 16mm format (2R) for those with older 16mm cameras who can't use the more common single perf (AKA Super16) film.

Having a designated dealer for certain unusual stocks may be a workable model.

I bought all my 8mm film from John Schwind. When I heard about Kodak discontinuing E-100D I immediately contacted John and bought as much 8mm as I could afford. I should have taken out a loan to get more, I love the way it projects. He is completely out of 8mm E-100D despite what his web site says. Whitner in Germany has what they call Wittner Chrome 200D which I think is from an Agfa stock. They cut and perforate it themselves. It's very grainy and expensive. I know John is following whats going on with Ferrania, hopefully he goes for a large order. We can thank him for keeping 8mm film alive all this time.

 

[Dave in Kansas]

The Example I an thinking of is John Schwind ( http://internationalfilm.weebly.com/ ). He was able to get a Large order of various film stocks perforated as Regular 8 (2R1500) but only on 400ft cores. He arranged to get spools and Cans (apparently originally made by the Russian CIBMA factory) and re spooled the regular 8 stock for end users. He still apparently still has some 7285 which he had to call "Cinechrome 100D" as Kodak would not allow him to use the Kodak name on repacked film.

He also stocks Tri-X reversal in double perf 16mm format (2R) for those with older 16mm cameras who can't use the more common single perf (AKA Super16) film.

Thanks for the link. I have an older 16mm camera that requires double perf film and it appears that Kodak no longer stocks that.

Dave

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

APUGChrome???

Wouldn't you be worried about it straying off target?:munch:

Okay then... how about APUGTrollChrome? (not referencing anyone)

 

[StoneNYC]

Thanks for the link. I have an older 16mm camera that requires double perf film and it appears that Kodak no longer stocks that.

Dave

You're making me nervous, now I'm thinking and wondering if the camera my grandfather used was single or double perf...

 

[Dave in Kansas]

If you have access to it, pop the cover and take a look.

Dave

 

[Nzoomed]

You're making me nervous, now I'm thinking and wondering if the camera my grandfather used was single or double perf...

I was looking at getting a bolex camera, i assumed that all these older cameras were double perf since they did not have sound.
Perhaps not? I only thought newer cameras that had sound or were super 16mm were single perf.

 

[FILM Ferrania]

So there's a possibility of doing a "small" orders for customers?

Not in the way I think you mean. But we have some ideas floating around about how to manage pre-sold small-batch production runs. "Small-batch" is a relative term. Small for us might not be small enough for some formats, and I'm sure the number will vary by format.

These are just ideas, at this point, and are dependent on quite a number of other things falling into place first.

 

[pbromaghin]

These are just ideas, at this point, and are dependent on quite a number of other things falling into place first.

The important thing is that you have the ideas. The very possibility of E6 or C-41 being available in oddball formats is a bit thrilling. Even to this MF and 35mm shooter.

 

[Xmas]

I was looking at getting a bolex camera, i assumed that all these older cameras were double perf since they did not have sound.
Perhaps not? I only thought newer cameras that had sound or were super 16mm were single perf.

http://www.sparetimelabs.com/animato/animato/s16/s16.html

 

[cmacd123]

You're making me nervous, now I'm thinking and wondering if the camera my grandfather used was single or double perf...

Most 16mm camera film used to be sold double perfed. (even for productions with sound - since sound was generally double system) so A lot of cameras were made with double perf sprockets. Many Many more were made with single pref sprockets, and those can take both double and single perf stock.

some filmmakers came up with the idea of enlarging the gate on a movie camera to allow the image to also use the area where the second row of perforations was originally placed. the film could then be enlarged in printing to 35mm or scanned to wide screen video. This method was called "Super 16"


Kodak liked the idea as it made film origination more ecconomical, and so encouraged film use, so they changed the default stocked format of 16mm Camera stock to single perf. This of course causes problems if you have an older camera with double perf sprokets, or one with the pull down claw on the "soundtrack" side.

This is why a couple of hundred posts back someone was asking FILMFerrania if they were going to make double perf 16mm stock, which Dave said was not in the initial batch plan.

Since you are in NYC, take the camera in to DUall http://www.duallcamera.com/ and they can tell you if it needs to be modified.

 

[Nzoomed]

Most 16mm camera film used to be sold double perfed. (even for productions with sound - since sound was generally double system) so A lot of cameras were made with double perf sprockets. Many Many more were made with single pref sprockets, and those can take both double and single perf stock.

some filmmakers came up with the idea of enlarging the gate on a movie camera to allow the image to also use the area where the second row of perforations was originally placed. the film could then be enlarged in printing to 35mm or scanned to wide screen video. This method was called "Super 16"


Kodak liked the idea as it made film origination more ecconomical, and so encouraged film use, so they changed the default stocked format of 16mm Camera stock to single perf. This of course causes problems if you have an older camera with double perf sprokets, or one with the pull down claw on the "soundtrack" side.

This is why a couple of hundred posts back someone was asking FILMFerrania if they were going to make double perf 16mm stock, which Dave said was not in the initial batch plan.

Since you are in NYC, take the camera in to DUall http://www.duallcamera.com/ and they can tell you if it needs to be modified.

How was sound recorded onto 16mm on such systems?
Magnetic 16mm is not available anymore and very few 16mm cameras record optically that i can see.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

/OFF TOPIC

Dual perforated B&W 16mm is still being made and sold fresh: http://www.fomafoto.com/index.php/v...apan-100r-16mm-30-5m-double-perforated-detail

I'm going to give you a suggestion: if you want to see Ferrania doing a colour version of 16mm double perforated, why not buy the Fomapan 100R B&W film?
You will be showing there is a market for it.

/END OFF TOPIC

 

[Xmas]

How was sound recorded onto 16mm on such systems?
Magnetic 16mm is not available anymore and very few 16mm cameras record optically that i can see.

separate with clapper board

 

[Xmas]

Most 16mm camera film used to be sold double perfed. (even for productions with sound - since sound was generally double system) so A lot of cameras were made with double perf sprockets. Many Many more were made with single pref sprockets, and those can take both double and single perf stock.

some filmmakers came up with the idea of enlarging the gate on a movie camera to allow the image to also use the area where the second row of perforations was originally placed. the film could then be enlarged in printing to 35mm or scanned to wide screen video. This method was called "Super 16"


Kodak liked the idea as it made film origination more ecconomical, and so encouraged film use, so they changed the default stocked format of 16mm Camera stock to single perf. This of course causes problems if you have an older camera with double perf sprokets, or one with the pull down claw on the "soundtrack" side.

This is why a couple of hundred posts back someone was asking FILMFerrania if they were going to make double perf 16mm stock, which Dave said was not in the initial batch plan.

Since you are in NYC, take the camera in to DUall http://www.duallcamera.com/ and they can tell you if it needs to be modified.

With a darkroom you can respool to transpose the single perf side and recan...
see post #461 for holes

 

[Xmas]

/OFF TOPIC

Dual perforated B&W 16mm is still being made and sold fresh: http://www.fomafoto.com/index.php/v...apan-100r-16mm-30-5m-double-perforated-detail

I'm going to give you a suggestion: if you want to see Ferrania doing a colour version of 16mm double perforated, why not buy the Fomapan 100R B&W film?
You will be showing there is a market for it.

/END OFF TOPIC

our local stockist only holds single so if you making film you may need to preorder for 2nd takes etc.
Some pro cine people shoot with hybrid cameras and can reduce 2nd takes, 3rd...
Some productions are done on other people's recans...
I can use ex-cine in my sub min cams

 

[dehk]

I don't have any questions for you, since all my question were answered by that one long podcast floating around.
But it's darn good to see you here, and you betcha I am buying some chrome when you are ready. After all Dwayne's over in KS need something to develop.

 

[Nzoomed]

separate with clapper board

Yeah, thats OK if your into movie production, but for a few home movies i would make, its not convenient. I dont know how you could synchronise when being projected either. if you were scanning it to digital that would be easier, but defeats the whole purpose of using my projector.
If only magnetic sound film was still available, if ferrania could pull this off, it would be a big deal to the film community.

 

[Xmas]

Yeah, thats OK if your into movie production, but for a few home movies i would make, its not convenient. I dont know how you could synchronise when being projected either. if you were scanning it to digital that would be easier, but defeats the whole purpose of using my projector.
If only magnetic sound film was still available, if ferrania could pull this off, it would be a big deal to the film community.

But you asked how it was done pro people used to use 16 mm like that not many home users shot 'in cam' sound, maybe some news gather people might have.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

our local stockist only holds single so if you making film you may need to preorder for 2nd takes etc.
Some pro cine people shoot with hybrid cameras and can reduce 2nd takes, 3rd...
Some productions are done on other people's recans...
I can use ex-cine in my sub min cams

Yeah, I saw that. That's why I posted the Fomafoto link. I knew I had seen several formats for Fomapan.

 

[Nzoomed]

Another Question Dave.
Regarding formats such as 126, who makes the plastic film cartridges for this?
Did Ferrania have their own injection moulding equipment to make them, or did they buy them off another supplier?
Since this is an obsolete format, i doubt even kodak still have the machinery to make them.
Same for Super8, from what im aware, everyone is buying the cartridges from kodak, is this the case for you, or do you have the means to make the cartridges?

 

[Xmas]

Not a real question Lomo have just introduced 110 cartridges to go with their new 110 cameras.
The cartridges are pretty good quality on a par with Kodak's.

If you wanna pay for a mould people will do one.
They are finishing E6, C41, and mono there is a brick shop 400m away from me with racks off said film.

So you need to look at the NZ kickstart for an E6 lab repair and ask yourself is there going to be enough 35mm 36 exp volume by the time Ferrani start getting film to your address.

Labs are already too inconvenient for me stopped E6 2007, previous it was all I shot.

 

[railwayman3]

Another Question Dave.
Regarding formats such as 126, who makes the plastic film cartridges for this?
Did Ferrania have their own injection moulding equipment to make them, or did they buy them off another supplier?

IIRC, Ferrania Solaris was the last film produced in the 126 format....or, at least, the last one available ?

And wasn't Adox suggesting a while ago that they planned a 126 B&W film ? So presumably the plastic film cartridges can be produced fairly readily.

 

[cmacd123]

OFF TOPIC:

Movie Sound for "production" is generally recorded separately, buy a recorder (of some type) with some speed regulation to ensure the sound can be macthed up later. Originally It was on film with a "sound camera" later magnetic film, or magnetic tape with a control track to keep the speed in line, these days probably digitally.

There were VERY FEW 16mm cameras which recorded Optical sound in camera. Most famously the Auricon. Mostly used for TV news. Many were later made using a magnetic stripe on the film, film in that format was discontinued by Kodak years ago.

Finished film prints had an Optical track from a separate negative, after editing. Late 35mm prints also had Dolby Digital sound in the area between the perforations. or for a short while the now dead SDDS tracks on the rebate portion of the print. The Sound track was cyan and the film makers name changed to magenta to allow both bits of information to share the same area.

IF the camera film is edited in Video formats, the sound track area is not used, which is where Super 16 comes in. That format was by itself NOT suitable for Projection. Features like "The Hurt Locker" shot in Super 16 were enlarged to 35mm for presentation.

HOW THIS RELATES TO FERRANIA:

Only relation in this post is to show that there are still some applications for Double perf 16mm, even if oon a once a year preorder basis.

 

[CineFred]

Re: 16mm filmstock single perf and double perf

Hi,

16mm color reversal film and B/W film 1R (single row perforated) and 2R (double row perforated) can be found and obtained here:

http://www.wittner-cinetec.com/katalog/04_filmm/16_filmm.php

They also stock Double 8 and Super 8 film, both, color reversal and B/W.